You're asking very good questions, about a topic I considered bringing up in my previous response but didn't. I guess I will now :)

The important thing to realize about monad transformers (and monads in general) is that _they're nothing special_. Under the surface, WriterT is simply:

* Modifying your functions to have an extra value returned
* Providing convenience functions like `tell` and `liftIO` to work with that extra value

I would strongly advise getting used to writing code in both the transformer and non-transformer style to convince yourself that they are the same thing. To make this concrete, look at the WriterT definition:

    newtype WriterT w m a = WriterT { runWriterT :: m (a, w) }

If you take away the newtype wrapping business, you can see that it's just saying `WriterT w m a = m (a, w)`. And therefore, if we go back to your types, we can replace:

    WriterT (Sum a) IO ()

with

    IO ((), Sum a)

In fact, that's exactly what `runWriterT` is doing. I would recommend trying to rewrite your code to not even bother with the `WriterT` at all and see if you can get the same output.

So your intuition is correct: there's no output parameter like in C. You could simulate that in Haskell by passing in a mutable variable (like an IORef), but that's not idiomatic. Passing back pairs of values is common in Haskell.

Transformers can be useful for avoiding a lot of boilerplate code. They can also introduce a lot of complexity in some cases. Figuring out when is the right time to use them and when not is subjective and nuanced. Knowing the skill is great; being able to avoid using the skill is also important :)

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Baa <aquagnu@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello, Michael! This answers to my question completely, thank you so
much!

But looking at this code, I thought: how is it right to wrap/unwrap
write monad? In languages like C or Python we can pass input/output
argument (`int*` in C or `[0]` in Python) and use it as some
accumulator. But here writer monad is not using as accumulator,
accumulating (summation) happens in `mconcat`, right? It's using only
as output value, i.e. place to "yield" result. I mean `w` is 0, each
call of `runIt` sets there 1, after all calls we calculate sum of this
1's. And instead of `censor (+1) w` I can do `tell 1` only.

It means that `runIt` can return not `IO ()` but `IO Int` and results
of all `runIt`'s asynchnronously gotten values can be accumulated with
`mconcat` without using of writer monad. Am I right, writer monad here
is not accumulator but only output value (like output arguments in
C/C++/IDL/etc)? How is this a typical solution in Haskell - to use
writer monad with wrap/unwrap multiple times, only to save output
value?



On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 12:31:56 +0300
Michael Snoyman <michael@snoyman.com> wrote:

> Firstly, a direct answer to your question: use mconcat.
>
>     main :: IO ()
>     main = do
>     let l = [1,2,3,4]
>         w = writer ((), 0) :: WriterT (Sum Int) IO ()
>     z <- sequence
>         (map (A.async . runWriterT . runIt w) l)
>         >>= mapM A.wait
>     print $ snd $ mconcat z
>
> Under the surface, WriterT is using mappend to combine the `Sum`
> values anyway, so it's natural is `mconcat` (the version of mappend
> that applies to list) to get the same result. Now some possible
> improvements.
>
> You're not actually using the return value from the `runIt` call,
> just the writer value. There's a function called `execWriter` for
> this:
>
>     z <- sequence
>         (map (A.async . execWriterT . runIt w) l)
>         >>= mapM A.wait
>     print $ mconcat z
>
> Next, the combination of map and sequence can be written as traverse:
>
>     z <- traverse (A.async . execWriterT . runIt w) l
>         >>= mapM A.wait
>
> But the async library is cool enough that it provides a function
> called mapConcurrently that deals with the async/wait dance for you:
>
>     main :: IO ()
>     main = do
>       let l = [1,2,3,4]
>           w = writer ((), 0) :: WriterT (Sum Int) IO ()
>       z <- A.mapConcurrently (execWriterT . runIt w) l
>       print $ mconcat z
>
> One final note: usage of `print` like this in a concurrent context
> can run into interleaved output if you have the wrong buffer mode
> turned out, leading to output like this:
>
> 2
> 3
> 41
>
> This is especially common when using runghc or ghci. You can either
> change the buffering mode or use a different output function like
> sayShow (from the say package, which I wrote):
>
>     module Main where
>
>     import qualified Control.Concurrent.Async as A
>     import Control.Monad.Trans.Writer
>     import Data.Monoid
>     import Say
>
>     runIt :: (Show a, Num a)
>           => WriterT (Sum a) IO ()
>           -> a
>           -> WriterT (Sum a) IO ()
>     runIt w x = do
>       censor (+1) w -- emulates conditional count of something
>       sayShow x
>
>     main :: IO ()
>     main = do
>       let l = [1,2,3,4]
>           w = writer ((), 0) :: WriterT (Sum Int) IO ()
>       z <- A.mapConcurrently (execWriterT . runIt w) l
>       sayShow $ mconcat z
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 11:36 AM, Baa <aquagnu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello, Dear List!
> >
> > There is package `async`
> > (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/async-2.1.1.1/docs/
> > Control-Concurrent-Async.html).
> >
> > Before, I had:
> >
> >     import qualified Control.Concurent.Async as A
> >     ...
> >     runIt :: ... -> IO ()
> >     ...
> >       sequence [A.async $ runIt ...] >>= mapM_ A.wait
> >
> > But now I want to count something inside `runIt`. I will use
> > `Writer` monad for it (sure, it can be `State` also, not in
> > principle to me). To do it synchronously, I done:
> >
> >     module Main where
> >
> >     import Control.Monad.Trans.Writer
> >     import Control.Monad.IO.Class
> >     import Data.Monoid
> >
> >     runIt :: (Show a, Num a) => WriterT (Sum a) IO () -> a ->
> > WriterT (Sum a) IO ()
> >     runIt w x = do
> >       censor (+1) w -- emulates conditional count of something
> >       liftIO $ print x
> >
> >     main = do
> >       let l = [1,2,3,4]
> >           w = writer ((), 0) :: WriterT (Sum Int) IO ()
> >       z <- runWriterT $ sequence [runIt w i | i <- l]
> >       print $ snd z
> >
> > but now my `runIt` changes it's signature:
> >
> >     runIt :: Num a => WriterT (Sum a) IO () -> ... -> WriterT (Sum
> > a) IO () ...
> >       sequence [A.async $ runIt ...] >>= mapM_ A.wait
> >                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
> >                      ` ERROR is here!
> >
> > I get the error because `async`::IO () -> IO (A.Async ()) but I'm
> > trying to pass it `WriterT (Sum a) IO ()`!
> >
> > To fix it I added `runWriterT` there:
> >
> >     res <- sequence [A.async $ runWriterT (runIt ...) ...] >>= mapM
> > A.wait
> >
> > but now I will get list of counters, not one (res::[((), Sum Int)])!
> >
> > How to solve this problem: to run several actions asyncronously and
> > to count something
> > inside the action with `Writer` monad?
> >
> >
> > ===
> > Best regards, Paul
> > _______________________________________________
> > Beginners mailing list
> > Beginners@haskell.org
> > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> >

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