This probably isn't the right forum for expressing this thought, but here goes anyway: What exactly is the freedom that Yesod takes away from you? I know this idea gets passed around a lot: Yesod isn't "really" Haskell, Yesod is its own language, etc. But all of that is really just talking about some sugar that Yesod puts in place for you: under the surface, it's just functions, data types and type classes. You can go ahead and write a complete Yesod application without using Template Haskell of QuasiQuotation. So what's the restriction that Yesod has that Happstack/Snap don't? Yesod requires you to provide some datatypes. That's it. What's the purpose of the datatypes? Mostly, it's about type-safe URLs. I'm not exactly sure why the term "restriction" or "freedom" even applies here: Yesod has a *feature* that Happstack/Snap do not include out of the box. Let me phrase this in a different way: "But I don't like Haskell, because the idea of Python in more interesting for me. Python gives you some freedom." I really do see this as the same argument. You can go ahead and right some code without static type checking in Python, and you might even write it faster than you would have in Haskell. But go ahead and start making changes, and unless you have some very good unit tests, you're in for a world of hurt. In Haskell, often times the compiler will save you from yourself. The same is true in Yesod. I've refactored incredibly large codebases, with hundreds of different resource patterns, and *never* had to worry about 404s. Maybe some people consider that giving up freedom. I consider it giving up the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot. Oh, and if you are absolutely dependent on the idea of getting rid of this data-type requirements, and want all the freedom of dynamic routes, you can try out a 44 line module[1] that I mentioned recently[2]. OK, enough of this rant. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just tired of this notion that Yesod is a ball-and-chain around your ankles. People can have legitimate reasons to prefer Happstack or Snap to Yesod, I've never claimed that it was a perfect framework for everyone. I just don't think this is one of those legitimate reasons. Michael [1] https://gist.github.com/884802 https://gist.github.com/884802[2] http://osdir.com/ml/general/2011-04/msg02160.html On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Alexey G wrote:

Hello. It's very interesting theme for me and I want to express my opinion. Yesod - very fast web-framework( http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/preliminary-warp-cross-language-benchmarks). But I don't like Yesod, because idea of Happstack more interesting for me. Happstack gives to you some freedom.

I trying to use Snap Framework now. And it's very good for me. Try it http://snapframework.com/!

Sorry for my english.

2011/4/5 Ramy Abdel-Azim

...

I already posted about this a little bit but i think i should let the old thread get back to it's regularly scheduled conversaion. on to my question:

So I know there are a million easier ways to createa blog (wordpress, django, drupal, etc. etc.) but which would you recommend I use to build a beginner website that is simliar to a blog: happstack or yesod? _Ramy

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I'm not sure where you got that implication from. Happstack is a good framework, and using it will definitely help you learn Haskell. But the same is true of Yesod or Snap. I guess you might say that if your goal is to learn Haskell, and not to create websites, then you shouldn't be using a framework at all, and should be writing code that reads/sends ByteStrings over sockets. You'll definitely learn more Haskell that way... Michael On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:50 PM, Ramy Abdel-Azim wrote:

well, i'll add my $.02 here (hopefully without throwing fuel on the fire) and say that - without knowing much about either, I asked the question for pete's sake! - is that from what you're saying, if I'dlike to use one of these frameworks to not only build my website but to also solidify what knowledge of haskell i've acquired, I should go with Happstack.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Michael Snoyman wrote:

...

This probably isn't the right forum for expressing this thought, but here goes anyway:

What exactly is the freedom that Yesod takes away from you? I know this idea gets passed around a lot: Yesod isn't "really" Haskell, Yesod is its own language, etc. But all of that is really just talking about some sugar that Yesod puts in place for you: under the surface, it's just functions, data types and type classes. You can go ahead and write a complete Yesod application without using Template Haskell of QuasiQuotation.

So what's the restriction that Yesod has that Happstack/Snap don't? Yesod requires you to provide some datatypes. That's it. What's the purpose of the datatypes? Mostly, it's about type-safe URLs. I'm not exactly sure why the term "restriction" or "freedom" even applies here: Yesod has a *feature* that Happstack/Snap do not include out of the box.

Let me phrase this in a different way: "But I don't like Haskell, because the idea of Python in more interesting for me. Python gives you some freedom." I really do see this as the same argument. You can go ahead and right some code without static type checking in Python, and you might even write it faster than you would have in Haskell. But go ahead and start making changes, and unless you have some very good unit tests, you're in for a world of hurt. In Haskell, often times the compiler will save you from yourself.

The same is true in Yesod. I've refactored incredibly large codebases, with hundreds of different resource patterns, and *never* had to worry about 404s. Maybe some people consider that giving up freedom. I consider it giving up the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot.

Oh, and if you are absolutely dependent on the idea of getting rid of this data-type requirements, and want all the freedom of dynamic routes, you can try out a 44 line module[1] that I mentioned recently[2].

OK, enough of this rant. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just tired of this notion that Yesod is a ball-and-chain around your ankles. People can have legitimate reasons to prefer Happstack or Snap to Yesod, I've never claimed that it was a perfect framework for everyone. I just don't think this is one of those legitimate reasons.

Michael

[1] https://gist.github.com/884802 https://gist.github.com/884802[2] http://osdir.com/ml/general/2011-04/msg02160.html

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Alexey G wrote:

...

Hello. It's very interesting theme for me and I want to express my opinion. Yesod - very fast web-framework( http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/preliminary-warp-cross-language-benchmarks ). But I don't like Yesod, because idea of Happstack more interesting for me. Happstack gives to you some freedom.

I trying to use Snap Framework now. And it's very good for me. Try it http://snapframework.com/!

Sorry for my english.

2011/4/5 Ramy Abdel-Azim

...

I already posted about this a little bit but i think i should let the old thread get back to it's regularly scheduled conversaion. on to my question:

So I know there are a million easier ways to createa blog (wordpress, django, drupal, etc. etc.) but which would you recommend I use to build a beginner website that is simliar to a blog: happstack or yesod? _Ramy

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

to also solidify what

knowledge of haskell i've acquired, I should go with Happstack.

That doesn't follow. Either project will help you get better with Haskell. Unless you're looking to build a static site, in which case these frameworks are overkill and Hakyll [1] is a good option. As of now, Yesod [2] is much better documented than Happstack. As a Haskell beginner this is far more important to me than the use of quasiquoting. By the way, the happstack-state project (which is used to {de}serialize data structures to disk) is heavily dependent on quasiquoting. The Happstack project has a lot going for it and it has been around longer and thus might be considered more mature, but just from the quality of Yesod's website, documentation and the responsiveness of the lead developer it seems like a more beginner friendly project. -deech [1] http://jaspervdj.be/hakyll/ [2] http://www.yesodweb.com/

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Michael Snoyman wrote:

...

This probably isn't the right forum for expressing this thought, but here goes anyway: What exactly is the freedom that Yesod takes away from you? I know this idea gets passed around a lot: Yesod isn't "really" Haskell, Yesod is its own language, etc. But all of that is really just talking about some sugar that Yesod puts in place for you: under the surface, it's just functions, data types and type classes. You can go ahead and write a complete Yesod application without using Template Haskell of QuasiQuotation. So what's the restriction that Yesod has that Happstack/Snap don't? Yesod requires you to provide some datatypes. That's it. What's the purpose of the datatypes? Mostly, it's about type-safe URLs. I'm not exactly sure why the term "restriction" or "freedom" even applies here: Yesod has a *feature* that Happstack/Snap do not include out of the box. Let me phrase this in a different way: "But I don't like Haskell, because the idea of Python in more interesting for me. Python gives you some freedom." I really do see this as the same argument. You can go ahead and right some code without static type checking in Python, and you might even write it faster than you would have in Haskell. But go ahead and start making changes, and unless you have some very good unit tests, you're in for a world of hurt. In Haskell, often times the compiler will save you from yourself. The same is true in Yesod. I've refactored incredibly large codebases, with hundreds of different resource patterns, and *never* had to worry about 404s. Maybe some people consider that giving up freedom. I consider it giving up the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot. Oh, and if you are absolutely dependent on the idea of getting rid of this data-type requirements, and want all the freedom of dynamic routes, you can try out a 44 line module[1] that I mentioned recently[2]. OK, enough of this rant. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just tired of this notion that Yesod is a ball-and-chain around your ankles. People can have legitimate reasons to prefer Happstack or Snap to Yesod, I've never claimed that it was a perfect framework for everyone. I just don't think this is one of those legitimate reasons. Michael [1] https://gist.github.com/884802 [2] http://osdir.com/ml/general/2011-04/msg02160.html

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Alexey G wrote:

...

Hello. It's very interesting theme for me and I want to express my opinion. Yesod - very fast web-framework(http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/preliminary-warp-cross-language-benchmarks). But I don't like Yesod, because idea of Happstack more interesting for me. Happstack gives to you some freedom. I trying to use Snap Framework now. And it's very good for me. Try it http://snapframework.com/! Sorry for my english.

2011/4/5 Ramy Abdel-Azim

...

I already posted about this a little bit but i think i should let the old thread get back to it's regularly scheduled conversaion. on to my question: So I know there are a million easier ways to createa  blog (wordpress, django, drupal, etc. etc.) but which would you recommend I use to build a beginner website that is simliar to a blog: happstack or yesod? _Ramy _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

Good morning, Thank you for your very informative comments... I'm starting Yesod and will , now, also take a look at happstack... I'm an independent software consultant, so I'm looking for a way to make money using Haskell... I tried installing the TK interface to Haskell but was unable to get it loaded...I spent about a week on it before finally abandoning this effort... So, I was about ready to give up on Haskell, since I couldn't figure how to connect it to TK or to the web, and then along came Yesod and Happstack, hopefully, to the rescue... I'll let you know how I make out Wish me luck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mats Rauhala" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [Haskell-beginners] happstack versus yesod

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