Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

edgar klerks

2 Jul 2010 2 Jul '10

8:36 p.m.

Hi All, I have a question. A friend of mine wants to learn a programming language, because we work together. He studied economics and is busy in the financial sector. I understood Haskell is used there pretty much, so he got interested in it. But is haskell a good language for someone, who never even tried a language like basic? I also want to know if someone has an idea, what a good approach is to start. I think real world haskell is a bit tough to begin with. He is an analytical thinker, so I think he can learn it, but I don't want to scare him away. He is interested in functional languages, because he knows the banking sector uses it a lot. Maybe lisp is a better start? I thought I first let him read: http://learnyouahaskell.com/introductionbecause it start with using haskell as a calculator. That seems to be pretty basic. And mathematics, where to start? I thought algebra, but I am not sure if that is too advanced. He doesn't want to be programming wonder, but he would like to solve simple things. Tnx for your help, your input is appreciated. Greetings, Edgar

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Jorden M

2 Jul 2 Jul

8:43 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

Reading The Haskell Road to Logic, Maths, and Programming would be a great way for someone with no more than high school level math to get started with programming and higher mathematics. On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 4:36 PM, edgar klerks wrote:

...

Hi All,

I have a question. A friend of mine wants to learn a programming language, because we work together. He studied economics and is busy in the financial sector. I understood Haskell is used there pretty much, so he got interested in it. But is haskell a good language for someone, who never even tried a language like basic?

I also want to know if someone has an idea, what a good approach is to start. I think real world haskell is a bit tough to begin with. He is an analytical thinker, so I think he can learn it, but I don't want to scare him away.

He is interested in functional languages, because he knows the banking sector uses it a lot. Maybe lisp is a better start?

I thought I first let him read: http://learnyouahaskell.com/introduction because it start with using haskell as a calculator. That seems to be pretty basic.

And mathematics, where to start? I thought algebra, but I am not sure if that is too advanced. He doesn't want to be programming wonder, but he would like to solve simple things.

Tnx for your help, your input is appreciated.

Greetings,

Edgar

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

edgar klerks

8:48 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

Ah thanks, that one looks good. It takes both mathematics and programming. On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Jorden M wrote:

...

Reading The Haskell Road to Logic, Maths, and Programming would be a great way for someone with no more than high school level math to get started with programming and higher mathematics.

...
Hi All,

I have a question. A friend of mine wants to learn a programming language, because we work together. He studied economics and is busy in the financial sector. I understood Haskell is used there pretty much, so he got interested in it. But is haskell a good language for someone, who never even tried a language like basic?

I also want to know if someone has an idea, what a good approach is to start. I think real world haskell is a bit tough to begin with. He is an analytical thinker, so I think he can learn it, but I don't want to scare him away.

He is interested in functional languages, because he knows the banking sector uses it a lot. Maybe lisp is a better start?

I thought I first let him read: http://learnyouahaskell.com/introduction because it start with using haskell as a calculator. That seems to be

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 4:36 PM, edgar klerks wrote: pretty

...
basic.

And mathematics, where to start? I thought algebra, but I am not sure if that is too advanced. He doesn't want to be programming wonder, but he would like to solve simple things.

Tnx for your help, your input is appreciated.

Greetings,

Edgar

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

-- Flatliner ICT Service, Email: Edgar.klerks@gmail.com, Tel: +31727851429 Fax: +31848363080 Skype: edgar.klerks Website: flatlinerict.nl Adres: Koelmalaan 258, 1813JD, Alkmaar Nederland

DekuDekuplex＠Yahoo.com

29 Jul 29 Jul

11:10 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

Jorden M writes:

...

Reading The Haskell Road to Logic, Maths, and Programming would be a great way for someone with no more than high school level math to get started with programming and higher mathematics.

Another title that I would recommend is _Programming in Haskell_, by Graham Hutton [1]. This book is written for beginners, and requires no previous programming experience. A favorable review [2] of this title has been written by Duncan Coutts. -- Benjamin L. Russell [1] Hutton, Graham. _Programming in Haskell._ Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2007. http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/book.html. [2] Coutts, Duncan. "Book Review: 'Programming in Haskell' by Graham Hutton." _The Monad.Reader Issue 7_ (2007): 35-44. Web. 30 Jul. 2010. http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/book-review.pdf.

Daniel Fischer

2 Jul 2 Jul

8:50 p.m.

On Friday 02 July 2010 22:36:46, edgar klerks wrote:

...

Hi All,

I have a question. A friend of mine wants to learn a programming language, because we work together. He studied economics and is busy in the financial sector. I understood Haskell is used there pretty much, so he got interested in it. But is haskell a good language for someone, who never even tried a language like basic?

Actually, the rumour goes that Haskell is easier to learn if your brain hasn't been conditioned by years of imperative programming.

...

I also want to know if someone has an idea, what a good approach is to start. I think real world haskell is a bit tough to begin with. He is an analytical thinker, so I think he can learn it, but I don't want to scare him away.

Analytical thinker sounds like a good fit, I'd think he'd see the beauty before being scared.

...

He is interested in functional languages, because he knows the banking sector uses it a lot. Maybe lisp is a better start?

Perhaps, perhaps not, depends on your friend.

...

I thought I first let him read: http://learnyouahaskell.com/introductionbecause it start with using haskell as a calculator. That seems to be pretty basic.

That, and the wikibook, I think for analytical people without much mathematical background, Simon Thompson's Craft of Functional Programming is an excellent fit.

...

And mathematics, where to start? I thought algebra, but I am not sure if that is too advanced.

Elementary number theory is a pretty good method to lead people into algebra. Start by giving problems that can be solved by trial and error and build a more systematic view upon those excursions.

...

He doesn't want to be programming wonder, but he would like to solve simple things.

Tnx for your help, your input is appreciated.

Greetings,

Edgar

edgar klerks

9:32 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

Hi Marc and Daniel, On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Daniel Fischer wrote:

...

On Friday 02 July 2010 22:36:46, edgar klerks wrote:

...
Hi All,

I have a question. A friend of mine wants to learn a programming language, because we work together. He studied economics and is busy in the financial sector. I understood Haskell is used there pretty much, so he got interested in it. But is haskell a good language for someone, who never even tried a language like basic?

Actually, the rumour goes that Haskell is easier to learn if your brain hasn't been conditioned by years of imperative programming.

...

wants to do .. If you have answers to that question Haskellers can help you easier and point you in the right direction.

He is interested in econometrics, I don't know much about it. I understood

I know, I don't want to be sour, but when I started to learn haskell it almost hurt. I took me a couple of months to loose the imperative style of thought. I have a physics background and picked up programming along the way. For some reason they never used functional languages. Such a pity. But now it is backwards, every time I have to go back to imperative style or something alike I am kinda bored. Luckily I slowly start to find it easier to implement stuff in Haskell instead of in other languages. But it is true, that you have to unlearn yourself. And for some reason I feel functional languages have the future. I think haskell has some points over lisp, because there is a lot of noise in the latter with the ()'s. Marc Weber wrote: Ask him what he is interested in most. Start with that. Ask him what he they use a lot of linear algebra. I have some books and sylabi about that, but more pointed towards physics. On Friday 02 July 2010 22:59:22, Marc Weber wrote:

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If you have answers to that question Haskellers can help you easier and point you in the right direction.

That reminds me of another point: The community. You won't easily find a community nearly as helpful as the Haskell community. That is true, this one of the most helpful communities I encountered. Haskell programmers seems also to be more knowledgeable than other programmers in maths. I bought 2 books now: The road to haskell, logic and mathematics. Simon Thompson's Craft of Functional Programming And I have Real world haskell lying around, but I lend it to someone else. I am "poisoning" my environment with haskell at the moment. :) I am a start up in the financial business. And one of the further goals is to develop financial tools for small and middle sized business. (Now we have some projects, which should induce a cash flow. Hopefully) Therefore the guy has to understand, what Haskell can do. I shall try to find out, what direction of mathematics interest him the most. Tnx for your help! Edgar

Marc Weber

8:59 p.m.

Hi Edgar If he doesn't know any other languages it may be even easier to him. Everyone who learned Basic and wants to start with Haskell has to change his mind. That said the only reason not to learn Haskell is - there are existing solutions which work - you want to use existing Java / .net libraries - You want to target Flash or JavaScript only (or something like that) Nothing of that applies. I'd even say Haskell is nice for beginning because if something compiles it usually works (unless you hit advanced issues).

...

but I don't want to scare him away. Either he is scared or he is not. That won't depend on Haskell IMHO.

...

And mathematics, where to start? Ask him what he is interested in most. Start with that. Ask him what he wants to do .. If you have answers to that question Haskellers can help you easier and point you in the right direction.

Greetings Marc Weber

Daniel Fischer

9:05 p.m.

On Friday 02 July 2010 22:59:22, Marc Weber wrote:

...

If you have answers to that question Haskellers can help you easier and point you in the right direction.

That reminds me of another point: The community. You won't easily find a community nearly as helpful as the Haskell community.

prad

9:28 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 22:36:46 +0200 edgar klerks wrote:

...

Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

as a recent haskell newbie myself i would say definitely yes! my minor programming experience is just getting in the way. marc weber wrote: "Everyone who learned Basic and wants to start with Haskell has to change his mind." my god yes! i find i'm actually having to learn programming concepts properly. i can't just sit down and create a script through trial and error. :D a mind replacement would likely be better for me than a simple change, but i'll settle for the latter for now. daniel fischer wrote: "You won't easily find a community nearly as helpful as the Haskell community." having been on several excellent boards for various computer oriented issues, i can with, without hesitation, state that this community is the best i've come across. when i ask a question, i'm not just given an answer ... i'm provided with a technical paper with tips, ideas, details unparallelled to anything else i've seen on any forum i've frequented over the past decade. (actually, edgar you are a case in point, since you were the first to assist me). the entire spirit is different here! -- In friendship, prad ... with you on your journey Towards Freedom http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website) Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's

Marc Weber

10:32 p.m.

If you'd ask me only I'd eventually say that you should know both worlds today .. At least a little bit. It always depends on the use case. Marc Weber

edgar klerks

11:13 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

Yeah, he is introducing me into his world. It is more interesting than I thought. We are applying for a license from the AFM (Financial Market Authority), which is pretty stringent in the Netherlands. So I am helping him with a business case. On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:32 AM, Marc Weber wrote:

...

If you'd ask me only I'd eventually say that you should know both worlds today .. At least a little bit. It always depends on the use case.

Marc Weber _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

aditya siram

11:25 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

Hi Edgar, If your friend is get-things-done kind of guy, in the beginning I think a language's Googleability is as important as the language itself. Second, is the language's ecosystem of development tools and libraries. I would pick a well supported language with functional features like Python or getting anything done will be frustrating. Haskell is awesome as a second language because it has a lot of features that don't make any sense (monads, for example) until you've done without them. -deech On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 7:13 PM, edgar klerks wrote:

...

Yeah, he is introducing me into his world. It is more interesting than I thought. We are applying for a license from the AFM (Financial Market Authority), which is pretty stringent in the Netherlands. So I am helping him with a business case.

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:32 AM, Marc Weber wrote:

...
If you'd ask me only I'd eventually say that you should know both worlds today .. At least a little bit. It always depends on the use case.

Marc Weber _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

edgar klerks

11:54 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

Hi Deech On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 1:25 AM, aditya siram wrote:

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Hi Edgar, If your friend is get-things-done kind of guy, in the beginning I think a language's Googleability is as important as the language itself. Second, is the language's ecosystem of development tools and libraries.

I would pick a well supported language with functional features like Python or getting anything done will be frustrating.

Haskell is awesome as a second language because it has a lot of features that don't make any sense (monads, for example) until you've done without them.

I am somewhat prejudiced, I always am about my newest language I am (still) learning. But I find haskell has a lot of interesting lib, but sometimes things are a bit undocumented. I have to admit that. Haskell is my hobby language at the moment. I am slowly introducing it. HaXml is really nice on the workfloor. I have used parsec too a couple of times. If he is starting from scratch he can pick the strange features up as if there are normal. That would be a huge benefit. My own problem was that I had an imperative way of thinking. So it would be interesting to see, if he has the same problems as I had. I think I would first try to learn him a bit of haskell and If he chokes on it I can switch back to another language. Python would be a good choice. I like python. It is easy to pick up. And it doesn't have the bad habits php has. Tnx for your advice. Greets, Deech

...

-deech

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 7:13 PM, edgar klerks wrote:

...
Yeah, he is introducing me into his world. It is more interesting than I thought. We are applying for a license from the AFM (Financial Market Authority), which is pretty stringent in the Netherlands. So I am helping him with a business case.

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:32 AM, Marc Weber wrote:

...
If you'd ask me only I'd eventually say that you should know both worlds today .. At least a little bit. It always depends on the use case.

Marc Weber _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

Michael Mossey

11:12 p.m.

New subject: Is haskell a good choice for someone, who never programmed before?

edgar klerks wrote:

...

Hi All,

I have a question. A friend of mine wants to learn a programming language, because we work together. He studied economics and is busy in the financial sector. I understood Haskell is used there pretty much, so he got interested in it. But is haskell a good language for someone, who never even tried a language like basic?

The book "Haskell: the Craft of Functional Programming" by Simon Thompson is written as a textbook suitable for Haskell as a first language. It does a good job of guiding the student's thought process: reasoning about programs, testing, proof, the development cycle, and the benefits of abstraction. It suggests ways of thinking about software by sketching temporary code, making diagrams, and the like. My first (and my next ten or so) languages were imperative, so I struggled the first few months with Haskell. But like others, I suspect that Haskell is an easy first language when your mind is guided correctly. Mike

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aditya siram
Daniel Fischer
DekuDekuplex＠Yahoo.com
edgar klerks
Jorden M
Marc Weber
Michael Mossey
prad