- FFI - Haskell.org

Re: Bound Threads
by Sven Panne 28 Feb '03

28 Feb '03

I just skimmed over Wolfgang's PDF and things look quite reasonable. Just to make sure I have understood everything correctly: To make HOpenGL work in the presence of a threaded RTS, the only places which need a change are the stub factories for GLUT callbacks, where a "bound" attribute is required now. What about the foreign import of glutMainLoop (the main native dispatcher for GLUT, which calls the Haskell callbacks mentioned above when an event occurs and blocks the rest of the time)? It is currently "safe", is this OK? Or should it be "threadsafe"? I must admit that I can't remember the exact semantic distinction between those two attributes anymore... :-} Cheers, S.

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Finalizers: the Legend that Won't Die
by George Russell 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

I geve the example > let > x = seq (unsafePerformIO runFinalizers) y > finalizer = [... something involving x ...] > [... attach finalizer to something ..] > [... something becomes free, putting finalizer on the to-be-done list ...] > [.., computation requiring x ...] to which Malcolm replied (snipped) > But isn't this just the same as any other program that contains a > blackhole fault? i.e. the program is logically incorrect. No I don't think it is logically incorrect. There's nothing terribly illogical about the user thinking in the middle of a long pure computation "Let's free up some space by running the finalizers". Nor indeed is there anything illogical about unsafePerformIO'ing some other operation which indirectly involves running finalizers. (You might logically do this at the end of some call to an pure-function-like external function, where you need to construct some complex data structure requiring finalizers, and think it would be a good idea to run the finalizers immediately afterwards.) Of course the example I gave is an extremely artificial one, but I see no reason why similar but much more complicated cases should not arise in "real life". > What is more, the runtime system will probably tell you "Blackhole detected!" > or "<<loop>>" or something, which is helpful. Well I suppose it's more helpful than hitting you over the head with a blunt instrument but it's not *very* helpful is it? You see "<<loop>>". The first reaction would be to assume you have a normal circularity. After a few happy minutes, or hours, discovering that this is not the case, you might work out that finalizers are somehow responsible, at which point you have to detect an arbitrarily complex cycle involving finalizers and partially-evaluated values. To make this more fun, you are relying on various unspecified properties of the garbage-collector and whatever external programs you are calling, meaning that it's very possible the bug will only occur sporadically, depending on the amount of memory the Haskell process is able to malloc or whatever.

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Finalizers: the Legend that Won't Die
by George Russell 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

Manuel wrote (snipped) > I have just read Hans Boehm's POPL paper on finalizers. His > suggestion for the use of finalizers in single-threaded > systems is to provide a `runFinalizers' routine, instead of > relying on the asynchronous execution that, as established, > requires support for concurrency. I am not sure whether we > have given this option really serious consideration. I can only see one problem with this. Suppose you have the following sequence of events: let x = seq (unsafePerformIO runFinalizers) y finalizer = [... something involving x ...] [... attach finalizer to something ..] [... something becomes free, putting finalizer on the to-be-done list ...] [.., computation requiring x ...] Then during the computation of x the following things are liable to happen: (1) Evaluation of x begins. x is blackholed. (2) runFinalizers is invoked. (3) "finalizer" is begun. (4) finalizer needs value of x. Ooops, what do we do now? Is it safe to run runFinalizers anywhere except in the main IO trunk? Otherwise you always have the risk of coming a cropper on blackholed values, don't you? George

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Bound Threads
by Wolfgang Thaller 16 Feb '03

16 Feb '03

Hello Everyone, I've added new sections to the document about bound threads (in CVS, haskell-report/ffi/threads.tex, version 1.8). The new sections are "Extension to the FFI Syntax", "Library Additions" and "Issues". Please have a look especially at the "Issues" section, I need some feedback! Cheers, Wolfgang P.S.: I've put a PDF of the file at http://www.uni-graz.at/imawww/haskell/threads.pdf

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haskell.cs.yale.edu
by Jane Brooks 13 Feb '03

13 Feb '03

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RE: safe and threadsafe
by Simon Peyton-Jones 11 Feb '03

11 Feb '03

| *) I am not convinced that thread synchronization should be done by the | FFI Me neither! It was news to me that anyone was *relying* on the (implementation-specific) fact that a "safe" call blocks other Haskell threads. I'd always regarded "safe" as just like "threadsafe" except that it was a bit more efficient, but with the penalty that blocking in the foreign call could gum up all Haskell threads. As Wolfgang says, the atomicity of "safe" is extremely dodgy. I suppose that "unsafe" could also mean "guaranteed atomic". After all, it can't call in, nor do GC, etc. And the RTS is in a state where nothing else can execute anyway. Even then, I agree with Wolfgang that it's very smelly. If you need atomicity, use an MVar, no? You may not want two concurrent GTK calls (although I don't see why not), but a GTK call concurrent with some other I/O would be ok. If two threads are drawing in two different GTK windows, couldn't they be concurrent? simon

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RE: safe and threadsafe
by Simon Marlow 10 Feb '03

10 Feb '03

> I don't think it was ever the intention that 'safe' should have a > guaranteed serialisation property. I think the idea was that > 'threadsafe' was the most desirable, with 'safe' and 'unsafe' only > available for use if you wanted more efficiency and had some separate > guarantees that the extra efficiency was not at the expense of > correctness. > > To be completely explicit, I think that increasing the safety level of > any foreign import should never make the program fail. If I recall correctly, the motivation for keeping "safe" was that we wanted to be able to make calls into non-threadsafe C libraries. Which, incedentally, would break the property that Simon mentions above: a non-threadsafe library would *require* foreign imports to be labelled "safe" rather than "threadsafe". However, at the time I don't think we appreciated the implementation diffiulties arising from "safe". Also, Wolfgang has pointed out that you can simulate serialisation in Haskell using MVars. Cheers, Simon

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Repeated hs_init()/hs_exit()
by Simon Marlow 10 Feb '03

10 Feb '03

I'm implementing the latest hs_init()/hs_exit() interface in GHC, and came across an ambiguity or omission in the spec. We're clear that this sequence should be allowed: hs_init(..) hs_init(..) hs_exit() hs_exit() but what about hs_init(..) hs_exit() hs_init(..) hs_exit() That is, should the Haskell system be able to start itself up again after shutting down? It looks like this is desirable from a modularity viewpoint: eg. a C program initialises library A which uses Haskell internally, then de-initialises library A, then initialises library B which also uses Haskell internally. Unfortunately, this is going to require quite a bit of extra work in GHC to get right, and it looks like I'm going to have to examine a lot of code to make sure it is "double-init-safe". Thoughts? Cheers, Simon

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RE: safe and threadsafe
by Simon Peyton-Jones 07 Feb '03

07 Feb '03

| I have recently spent some time improving GHC's support for | "threadsafe" foreign calls. | As a side effect of fixing a crashing bug, I made "safe" behave in | exactly the same way as "threadsafe". That's a positive advantage, provided there isn't a massive efficiency cost. I'm all for nuking 'threadsafe' if we can! | Are safe calls _guaranteed_ to block all other haskell threads and | prevent garbage collection, | or is that an implementation detail? Are unsafe calls guaranteed to do | so? {In a SMP implementation, | this might require additional interthread messaging}. | What should happen when C code running in a separate OS thread calls a | foreign exported | function while the Haskell Runtime is blocked on a safe call? Would all these questions go away if we made safe=threadsafe? | Some people have said that "safe" calls are intended for serializing | access to foreign libraries | that are not multithread-safe. I think that MVars should be used for | such purposes. Blocking the | entire Haskell Runtime for the duration of a "safe" call is overkill, | but it's not always enough: | Many old C libraries keep state in global variables from one call to | the next. I don't think it was ever the intention that 'safe' should have a guaranteed serialisation property. I think the idea was that 'threadsafe' was the most desirable, with 'safe' and 'unsafe' only available for use if you wanted more efficiency and had some separate guarantees that the extra efficiency was not at the expense of correctness. To be completely explicit, I think that increasing the safety level of any foreign import should never make the program fail. Simon

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Native threads
by Simon Peyton-Jones 07 Feb '03

07 Feb '03

Folks There was a spirited debate about the relationship between native OS threads and Haskell threads. I got very confused. To clear up my brain, Simon and I wrote a little operational semantics that tries to make precise what is going on. It's in CVS as haskell-report/ffi/threads.tex (Style files in haskell-report/styles) I did send this round a couple of weeks ago, and others made a couple of updates, but it seems to have killed the discussion stone dead! The (updated) postscript is at http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/tmp/threads.ps So I thought I'd mention it again. Apart from anything else, it'd be nice to get a merger of Wolfgang and Alastair's notes into the early sections of the document. Simon

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