Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020

While I don't want to foist more responsibility on the committee, I think it's asking too much of our community to be responsible for this. Invariably, a community member would propose a GHC20XX, there would be lots of debate, the debate would answer some questions and leave others unanswered, and then the committee would vote. During this time, the proposer would have to keep the proposal up to date, based on the hard-to-discern whims of the community, which may end up at odds with the committee (hopefully not too much at odds!). And then the proposal would have to be revised again after the committee votes. This reduces the load on the committee, but it wouldn't make for a rewarding experience for the proposer -- essentially because the person who does the labor (the proposer) wouldn't have very much authority. I'm fine with Alejandro's plan, and would be fine with trying out a new tool to organize our discussion (or not -- it's all up to the person taking charge). As for responsibility in the future: I don't know if we should codify that updated GHC20XX languages are our responsibility, per se, but they are a function we can perform when we feel the time is right. Richard

On Sep 8, 2020, at 6:37 AM, Simon Peyton Jones wrote:

Personally I don’t think we should make the Steering Committee responsible for initiating or driving this. We should establish the criteria (including some idea of how frequently we’d be open to creating a new GHCxx version), express open-ness to a proposal, and then review proposals when/if they materialise.

It’d be fine for Alejandro, as an individual, to be a proposer. But that’s different from making the committee responsible.

What do others think?

Simon

From: Alejandro Serrano Mena Sent: 08 September 2020 09:13 To: Simon Peyton Jones Cc: Richard Eisenberg ; Eric Seidel ; ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020

Dear all,

I would really like to move this forward, and I would be happy to put some work on it.

What do you think of the following plan?

- Create a ghc-proposal based on the (awesome) wiki page by Richard. I think the criteria in the wiki are quite nice. Explain that one of the goals is to encompass as many stable extensions as possible.

- Reformat the list to make 3 tables: one for extensions which satisfy all 5 criteria, one for extensions we want to include even if they don't, and one for those which should be rejected in the light of those criteria.

If the process works well, we could think about instaurating a yearly/bi-yearly/n-yearly process to create new -XGHC20XX versions.

Regards,

Alejandro

El lun., 7 sept. 2020 a las 17:32, Simon Peyton Jones via ghc-steering-committee (mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org>) escribió:

Just back from holiday. Some thoughts

* I don’t think this mailing list is the best place for the discussion. Basically, it's a GHC Proposal, so someone (possibly a committee member, possibly not) should write a proposal, and we should put it through the process.

* We should advertise the criteria, as Richard has done on the wiki page.

* Any such proposal should be informed by data. Notably, extension usage in Hackage, or perhaps Stackage (since it's a bit more curated).

* A proposer might also want to run a public poll, as an additional source of data

* When it comes to the committee, we can (I guess) vote on individual extensions, rather than just accept/reject the whole thing.

I am intrigued by the idea of using Kialo to coordinate discussion. Maybe it'd work better than GitHub? Are there other alternatives? But that's orthogonal to the GHC 2020 idea; let's not conflate them.

Simon

| -----Original Message----- | From: ghc-steering-committee mailto:bounces@haskell.org> On Behalf Of Richard Eisenberg | Sent: 02 September 2020 14:57 | To: Eric Seidel mailto:eric@seidel.io> | Cc: ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020 | | It seems clear that my wiki idea isn't winning the day -- I never | really liked it either. I'd be fine with either Eric's or Joachim's | approaches. Maybe start with Joachim's approach and then use Eric's | when Joachim's runs out of steam? A big minus, though, to Joachim's | approach is that it seems hard to get good community involvement. | | Richard | | > On Sep 2, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Eric Seidel mailto:eric@seidel.io> wrote: | > | > Opening a regular discussion about whether and how we want to work on | GHC 2020 sounds fine, that will also give the community a place to | weigh in. I do think the eventual contents should be informed by the | community though, it shouldn’t just be us working alone. | > | > Sent from my iPhone | > | >> On Sep 2, 2020, at 03:16, Joachim Breitner https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreitner.de%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cfaa7b2a148fd4381512c08d853cf0a81%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637351495986435664&sdata=Vfd5PeSlx%2FqLuT96wFjzBj0%2FVPgXrNqH%2FMgSj8g2QiM%3D&reserved=0> wrote: | >> | >> Hi, | >> | >> sounds plausible. It would also allow us to use tags to easily | indicate | >> the status (e.g. clearly-not, definitely-yes, kinda-contested…), and | >> then filter by issue to get the current list… | >> | >> But before we go there, shouldn’t we maybe have a discussion first | on | >> | >> * do we even want that? | >> * what are the abstract criteria (or guidelines)? | >> * what is the process? | >> | >> I believe that discussion could be done like any other proposal. | >> | >> | >> As for the process; when I brought up the idea, I was worried about | us | >> spending huge resources discussion individual extensions to death, | and | >> proposed, in the interest of efficiency and getting things done: | >> | >>> The process could be: Every member can nominate any number of | >>> extensions, to include, maybe a small rationale and then we do one | >>> round of independent approval voting, requiring a supermajority to | >>> really only pick uncontested extensions. | >> | >> So instead of long debates, we start with GHC2020 being just those | >> extensions that a supermajority on the committee considers to be ok. | >> | >> This is much more lightweight process that we could get done in a | week | >> or two (maybe using a doodle-like voting page). Maybe we would leave | >> out one or two extension that initially people are reserved about, | but | >> could be swayed after lengthy discussions. But is that worth the | >> lengthy discussion? | >> | >> cheers, | >> Joachim | >> | >> -- | >> Joachim Breitner | >> mail@joachim-breitner.de mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de | >> | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jo https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jo | achim- | breitner.de https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreitner.de%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cfaa7b2a148fd4381512c08d853cf0a81%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637351495986445657&sdata=O%2FFcf9XZLsKRW8ESW57%2B37Rp3WNt81xKPDn25QbT5Ng%3D&reserved=0%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40microsoft.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cfaa7b2a148fd4381512c08d853cf0a81%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637351495986445657&sdata=d98tn5pWeuHRDUn0PvEjhkMNFvFPvhtG00K2t2m2o9Y%3D&reserved=0%7Cfa6e3a6bcdf | 04ed5611208d84f480f21%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6373 | 46518199468575&sdata=ABgJCFijwzYszRybc0kReMPdR7oSLzC1nV1xJYSlxQ0%3D | &reserved=0 | >> | >> | >> _______________________________________________ | >> ghc-steering-committee mailing list | >> ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | >> | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail. | haskell.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhaskell.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cfaa7b2a148fd4381512c08d853cf0a81%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637351495986455654&sdata=jxJvPglvK%2BitmPb3xLo%2F8bXb53%2BwNzdIy8dcJvG9Af8%3D&reserved=0%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-steering- | committee&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com 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