Hi, Am Dienstag, den 15.12.2020, 21:44 +0000 schrieb Richard Eisenberg:
I just tried Kialo, and couldn't warm to it -- despite being excited to try.
+ I really like its way of encouraging individual pros and cons, and how these are kept short and independent.
- I can't get *any* forest, only lots and lots of trees.
I agree it’s odd that there is no comprehensive view of all claims. Maybe because it’s designed for much larger discussions, where that would be prohibitive. Did you find the circular red/green icon in the top left? If you click that you get some visualization of the whole thing.
- There seems to be no visual indication (to me) of when a node has sub-nodes. For example, if I read a "con" that itself has 5 "cons" underneath, I wouldn't know unless I click on it.
It’s not very obvious, but a claim with no subclaims is simply a white box, whereas a claim with subclaims is rendered as a white box with another white box beneath it, slightly offset (like a stack of papers).
- There doesn't seem to be a way to agree with an argument, without adding a distinct "pro". This means that if a post is liked by 8 of us and disliked (for different reasons) by 3, there would be 3 cons against it, no pros, and a misrepresentation of our communal opinion.
It’s not a voting tool. It is a way to map out the arguments, and (maybe) more easily appreciate and take in the facets of the discussion than other forms. That said, Kialo has an optional “voting” feature, where you can rate the “impact” of each claim (i.e. how strongly a pro or con claim affects its parent claim). https://support.kialo.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000705652-About-Voting I’ll enable it, maybe it’s useful.
In its current form, Kialo seems best as a way to organize pros and cons, but to actually have debate elsewhere. If someone out there knows how to mitigate the cons above, I'd be interested.
You can also comment on individual claims; maybe best if a claim is incorrect or vague or needs to be clarified. That’s a form of debate. Other than that, do we _need_ a debate? Or do we “just” need a good way to collect and refine the pros and cons of each option, so that every committee member can make a well-informed vote? Note that we are not having a technical decision. There is no right or wrong in including TupleSections in GHC2021. There are benefits and downsides (and kialo might be better to collect them than a linear medium like email), but in the end it’s all opinion based. Cheers, Joachim -- Joachim Breitner mail@joachim-breitner.de http://www.joachim-breitner.de/