I'm afraid that I'm somewhat sceptical of this approach. A strong stability guarantee is certainly a valuable goal, but it also comes with costs, which I'd like to see more clearly articulated. Some of them include: * Cognitive overhead for users, because of the inability to remove complexity from the design. * Increasing maintenance burden in the compiler, because of the additional work needed to implement new features and the inability to remove complexity from the implementation. * A risk of getting stuck in a local optimum, because moving to a better design would entail breaking changes. * Discouraging volunteer contributors, who are much less likely to work on a potentially beneficial change if the process for getting it approved is too onerous. (I'm worried we're already reaching that point due to the increasing burden of well-intentioned processes.) Ultimately every proposed change has a cost-benefit trade-off, with risk of breakage being one of the costs. We need to consciously evaluate that trade-off on a case-by-case basis. Almost all changes might break something (e.g. by regressing performance, or for Hyrum's Law reasons), so there needs to be a proportionate assessment of how likely each change is to be damaging in practice, bearing in mind that such an assessment is itself costly and limited in scope. It seems to me that the GHC team have taken on board lessons regarding stability of the language, and the extension system already gives quite a lot of flexibility to evolve the language in a backwards-compatible way. In my experience, the key stability problems preventing upgrades to recent GHC releases are: * The cascading effect of breaking changes in one library causing the need to upgrade libraries which depend upon it. This is primarily under the control of the CLC and library maintainers, however, not the GHC team. It would help if base was minimal and reinstallable, but that isn't a total solution either, because you'd still have to worry about packages depending on template-haskell or the ghc package itself. * Performance regressions or critical bugs. These tend to be a significant obstacle to upgrading for smaller commercial users. But spending more of our limited resources on stability of the language means fewer resources for resolving these issues. There's surely more we can do here, but let's be careful not to pay too many costs to achieve stability of the *language* alone, when stability of the *libraries* and *implementation* are both more important and harder to fix. Adam On 22/09/2023 10:53, Simon Peyton Jones wrote:
Dear GHC SC
To avoid derailing the debate about -Wsevere https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-steering-committee/2023-September/003..., and HasField redesign https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-steering-committee/2023-September/003..., I'm starting a new (email for now) thread about stability.
I have tried to articulate what I believe is an evolving consensus in this document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wtbAK6cUhiAmM6eHV5TLh8azEdNtsmGwm47Zulga....
If we converge, we'll turn that into a proper PR for the GHC proposal process, although it has wider implications than just GHC proposals and we should share with a broader audience. But let's start with the steering committee.
Any views? You all have edit rights.
I think that the draft covers Moritz's and Julian's goals, at least that was my intention. I have pasted Moritz's last email below, for context.
Simon
========= Moritz's last email ============
Now, this is derailing the original discussion a bit, and I'm not sure how far we want to take this. But, regarding @Simon Marlow mailto:marlowsd@gmail.com's comment
This is one cultural aspect of our community I'd like to shift: the expectation that it's OK to make breaking changes as long as you warn about them or go through a migration cycle. It just isn't! (and I speak as someone who used to make lots of changes, I'm now fully repentant!). That's not to say that we shouldn't ever change anything, but when considering the cost/benefit tradeoff adding a migration cycle doesn't reduce the cost, it just defers it.
I actually read this as we should stop having breaking changes to begin with. And _if_ we do have breaking changes, that deprecation does not change the need to actually change code (cost). As outlined in my reply to that, and @Richard Eisenberg mailto:lists@richarde.dev's observation, it "smears" the cost. The--to me--_much_ bigger implication of deprecation cycles is that we _inform_ our _customers_ about upcoming changes _early_, instead of _after the fact_. We also give them ample time to react. Being by changing their code, or raising their concerns. Would the Simplified Subsumptions / Deep Subsumptions change have looked differently? As such I see deprecation cycles as orthogonal to the question if we should have breaking changes to begin with.
Thus I believe the following:
- Do have a deprecation cycle if possible. - Do not treat a deprecation cycle as an excuse. Costs are deferred but are as large as ever.
should be upgraded to: - Preferably _no_ breaking changes. - If breaking changes, then with a deprecation cycle, unless technically infeasible. - An understanding that any breaking change incurs significant costs.
Ocaml recently added multicore support, and they put tremendous effort into making sure it keeps backwards compatibility: https://github.com/ocaml-multicore/docs/blob/main/ocaml_5_design.md https://github.com/ocaml-multicore/docs/blob/main/ocaml_5_design.md
PS: we should also agree that a "stable" extension should not require dependencies on ghc-experimental. To become stable, any library support for an extension must move into `base`.
This seems like a good idea, however I still remain that _experimental_ features should not be on-by-default in a stable compiler. Yes, ideally I'd not even see them in a stable compiler, but I know this view is contentious. The use of `ghc-experimental` should therefore be guarded by `--std=experimental` as Julian suggested. That is a loud opt-in to experimental features.
-- Adam Gundry, Haskell Consultant Well-Typed LLP, https://www.well-typed.com/ Registered in England & Wales, OC335890 27 Old Gloucester Street, London WC1N 3AX, England