Good points. How about this: when you do the work for your monthly email, you update the spreadsheet, including a prominent date saying "this was true on date X". Zero extra work for you. That way I can have a bookmark to a table that shows a decent approximation to the status quo. I find it hard to grep back through mountains of email, be sure I'm looking at the latest status update from you, etc. It's enough friction that I just don't do it. Tom, our "nudger" will find that useful -- and will doubtless update it if he knows the status has changed (e.g he nudges someone and they say "oh I did that"). The rest of us (esp shepherds) can use it as an aide memoire. (What proposals am I responsible for?) Would that be ok? Simon | -----Original Message----- | From: ghc-steering-committee On | Behalf Of Joachim Breitner | Sent: 01 July 2021 20:06 | To: ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC proposals | | Hi, | | I understand the desire to have a constantly updated "dashboard". But I | don't think a spreadsheed will work. At least not if your expectation is | that we, collaboratively, keep it up to date. If we already fall behind our | actual review commitments, surely we'll fall behind additional red tape | commitments. And then we'll have a file that we can't rely on because we | wouldn't be confident that it actually reflects reality. | | And it's not that I hates manual solutions. In fact, my semi-regular | "status" emails are fully manual! In a way you did more or less what I do | every time I create these: I did through my email and curate the current | status quo. This is tenable because it's clear who does it (the secretary, | instead of everybody), and because it's an email there is no confusion as | whether it is is up to date - is is up to date the moment I write it, and | makes no promises about later states. | | So that's a difference in frequency, form and ownership (at intervals vs. | continous; push email vs. pull URL; collectively vs. secretarial). | Your sheet also contains additional fields (Author, various dates) - maybe I | should include them in the status email. | | I don't want to stop us from trying out different procedures, though, so if | there is a general sentiment that a wiki-like process (everyone | collaboratively edits a common file) is worth exploring, we can do that of | course. But I miss the "yes please and I definitely will keep it up to date" | cries from our crowd :-) | | Ultimately, the best would be a tool that uses the Github API to create a | dashboard (Note that most information on your sheet is already present in | github, especially as all status changes are represented as label changes), | maybe even with automatic nudging on github or email. | | The next best thing is someone (but someone, not somemany) doing that | manually; maintaining a dashboard like yours, plus nudging. But who wants to | do manually what can be done (mostly) automated. | | | Cheers, | Joachim | | | Am Montag, dem 28.06.2021 um 09:56 +0000 schrieb Simon Peyton Jones via | ghc-steering-committee: | > I'm a bit concerned that we are falling down on our commitment to | > decide about GHC proposals in a timely manner. | > Part of the problem is that at any moment I don't have a clear | > snapshot in my head of what decisions are pending, and who is driving | > them.  I know that Joachim hates manual solutions, but I have spent a | > few minutes digging through my email to build | >  * this spreadsheet giving the current status You all have edit | > permissions.  It covers only the handful of proposals that are in our | > court.   Can I suggest that we all use it to keep ourselves on the | > ball?   E.g. as a shepherd you can use it to record who you are | > waiting for, as I have done for #302. | > You'll notice that we are behind on every one of them.  Remember, if | > there edits we want the author to make, we push it back, out of our | > court.  It can re-enter when the author re-submits. | > If our commitments are over-ambitious, let's review them. | > Tom: you are our official nudger.  Would you like to make you weekly | > nudge into an email to the full committee, with a pointer to the | > spreadsheet and your current understanding of who is responsible for | > driving? | > I hope this is helpful.  If not, let's think of something else! | > Simon | > _______________________________________________ | > ghc-steering-committee mailing list | > ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail | > .haskell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-steering-committee&a | > mp;data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C339ecde3cd0345bb56c008d93c | > c3520b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637607632780784446 | > %7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I | > k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hBK7hEfFzJhRh3iYskV8MCwHpr2jMYC | > c6Ed7fCUu0ro%3D&reserved=0 | | -- | Joachim Breitner | mail@joachim-breitner.de | | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joachim | - | breitner.de%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C339ecde3cd0345bb | 56c008d93cc3520b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63760763278079 | 4437%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1 | haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vn6ZhpdEb9QPd5KIMw6Wmg3QO7u51PJVNhlTSQO | nJBQ%3D&reserved=0 | | | _______________________________________________ | ghc-steering-committee mailing list | ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.haske | ll.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-steering- | committee&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C339ecde3cd0345bb56c00 | 8d93cc3520b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637607632780794437% | 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwi | LCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=EmSqsU2w3ARP3hXLA3xshhOt6zw%2Bn8LVx3qAy7sIGl | g%3D&reserved=0

| we might be converging on something here. it seems that a stable URL that | summarizes the status quo is a core desire here. Yes, that's right, thanks. Plus * Editable by us all * Citing key dates * when it entered the committee's bailiwick, * when our action is due * Clickable link to proposal A table seems perfect. A block of text less so. That's why I chose a spreadsheet format. | BTW, if you want up-to-date information on proposals under discussion, the | links "List of proposals waiting for shepherd recommendation" and "List of | proposals waiting for committee decision" right in the beginning of... | is a good starting point It's a good starting point, but it doesn't give the above key info. Simon | -----Original Message----- | From: ghc-steering-committee On | Behalf Of Joachim Breitner | Sent: 11 July 2021 19:51 | To: ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC proposals | | Hi, | | we might be converging on something here. it seems that a stable URL that | summarizes the status quo is a core desire here. | | I'd try to avoid adding more communication venues (we already have Github | and the mailing list). But how about whenever I send around the summary | mail, I also paste the status quo into the page at | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com | %2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc- | proposals%2Fwiki%2FStatus&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C12780 | b1684b64d7bdd6608d9449cd3c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637 | 616262730032384%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIi | LCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=%2Fl4qCZ4RAds8kYrr2890zoz5uu | 1aVcC5nTh2P6%2FiY24%3D&reserved=0 | | I'll tweak the markup next time so that it works well both in email and as | rendered markdown. | | BTW, if you want up-to-date information on proposals under discussion, the | links "List of proposals waiting for shepherd recommendation" and "List of | proposals waiting for committee decision" right in the beginning of | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com | %2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc- | proposals&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C12780b1684b64d7bdd660 | 8d9449cd3c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637616262730032384% | 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwi | LCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KYnxkG13G3RK6RQUp%2Bt3T0kHMpvslIbRBsDGKCRWdt | 4%3D&reserved=0 could be a good starting point. | | | Cheers, | Joachim | | Am Freitag, dem 09.07.2021 um 13:38 +0000 schrieb Simon Peyton Jones via | ghc-steering-committee: | > Good points. | > | > How about this: when you do the work for your monthly email, you update | the spreadsheet, including a prominent date saying "this was true on date | X". Zero extra work for you. | > | > That way I can have a bookmark to a table that shows a decent | approximation to the status quo. I find it hard to grep back through | mountains of email, be sure I'm looking at the latest status update from | you, etc. It's enough friction that I just don't do it. | > | > Tom, our "nudger" will find that useful -- and will doubtless update it if | he knows the status has changed (e.g he nudges someone and they say "oh I | did that"). | > | > The rest of us (esp shepherds) can use it as an aide memoire. (What | > proposals am I responsible for?) | > | > Would that be ok? | > | > Simon | > | > > -----Original Message----- | > > From: ghc-steering-committee | > > On Behalf Of Joachim | > > Breitner | > > Sent: 01 July 2021 20:06 | > > To: ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | > > Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC proposals | > > | > > Hi, | > > | > > I understand the desire to have a constantly updated "dashboard". | > > But I don't think a spreadsheed will work. At least not if your | > > expectation is that we, collaboratively, keep it up to date. If we | > > already fall behind our actual review commitments, surely we'll | > > fall behind additional red tape commitments. And then we'll have a | > > file that we can't rely on because we wouldn't be confident that it | actually reflects reality. | > > | > > And it's not that I hates manual solutions. In fact, my | > > semi-regular "status" emails are fully manual! In a way you did | > > more or less what I do every time I create these: I did through my | > > email and curate the current status quo. This is tenable because | > > it's clear who does it (the secretary, instead of everybody), and | > > because it's an email there is no confusion as whether it is is up | > > to date - is is up to date the moment I write it, and makes no promises | about later states. | > > | > > So that's a difference in frequency, form and ownership (at intervals | vs. | > > continous; push email vs. pull URL; collectively vs. secretarial). | > > Your sheet also contains additional fields (Author, various dates) | > > - maybe I should include them in the status email. | > > | > > I don't want to stop us from trying out different procedures, | > > though, so if there is a general sentiment that a wiki-like process | > > (everyone collaboratively edits a common file) is worth exploring, | > > we can do that of course. But I miss the "yes please and I definitely | will keep it up to date" | > > cries from our crowd :-) | > > | > > Ultimately, the best would be a tool that uses the Github API to | > > create a dashboard (Note that most information on your sheet is | > > already present in github, especially as all status changes are | > > represented as label changes), maybe even with automatic nudging on | github or email. | > > | > > The next best thing is someone (but someone, not somemany) doing | > > that manually; maintaining a dashboard like yours, plus nudging. | > > But who wants to do manually what can be done (mostly) automated. | > > | > > | > > Cheers, | > > Joachim | > > | > > | > > Am Montag, dem 28.06.2021 um 09:56 +0000 schrieb Simon Peyton Jones | > > via | > > ghc-steering-committee: | > > > I'm a bit concerned that we are falling down on our commitment to | > > > decide about GHC proposals in a timely manner. | > > > Part of the problem is that at any moment I don't have a clear > | > > snapshot in my head of what decisions are pending, and who is | > > driving > them.  I know that Joachim hates manual solutions, but I | > > have spent a > few minutes digging through my email to build >  * | > > this spreadsheet giving the current status You all have edit > | > > permissions.  It covers only the handful of proposals that are in | > > our > court.   Can I suggest that we all use it to keep ourselves | > > on the > ball?   E.g. as a shepherd you can use it to record who | > > you are > waiting for, as I have done for #302. | > > > You'll notice that we are behind on every one of them.  Remember, | > > if > there edits we want the author to make, we push it back, out | > > of our > court.  It can re-enter when the author re-submits. | > > > If our commitments are over-ambitious, let's review them. | > > > Tom: you are our official nudger.  Would you like to make you | > > weekly > nudge into an email to the full committee, with a pointer | > > to the > spreadsheet and your current understanding of who is | > > responsible for > driving? | > > > I hope this is helpful.  If not, let's think of something else! | > > > Simon | > > > _______________________________________________ | > > > ghc-steering-committee mailing list > | > > ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | > > > | > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fma | > > il > | > > .haskell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-steering-committee | > > &a > | > > mp;data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C339ecde3cd0345bb56c008d9 | > > 3c > | > > c3520b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6376076327807844 | > > 46 > | > > %7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI | > > 6I > | > > k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hBK7hEfFzJhRh3iYskV8MCwHpr2jM | > > YC | > > > c6Ed7fCUu0ro%3D&reserved=0 | > > | > > -- | > > Joachim Breitner | > > mail@joachim-breitner.de | > > | > > | > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww | > > .joachim | > > - | > > | > > breitner.de%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C339ecde3 | > > cd0345bb | > > | > > 56c008d93cc3520b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637607 | > > 63278079 | > > | > > 4437%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJ | > > BTiI6Ik1 | > > haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vn6ZhpdEb9QPd5KIMw6Wmg3QO7u51PJ | > > VNhlTSQO | > > nJBQ%3D&reserved=0 | > > | > > | > > _______________________________________________ | > > ghc-steering-committee mailing list | > > ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | > > | > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fma | > > il.haske | > > ll.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-steering- | > > | > > committee&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C339ecde3cd034 | > > 5bb56c00 | > > 8d93cc3520b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63760763278 | > > 0794437% | > > 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6 | > > Ik1haWwi | > > LCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=EmSqsU2w3ARP3hXLA3xshhOt6zw%2Bn8LVx3 | > > qAy7sIGl | > > g%3D&reserved=0 | > _______________________________________________ | > ghc-steering-committee mailing list | > ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail | > .haskell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-steering-committee&a | > mp;data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C12780b1684b64d7bdd6608d944 | > 9cd3c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637616262730032384 | > %7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I | > k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=si1nlH3Y%2BVSIU9q3pDaSLfCqIOXAG | > Y8bxX2l3thWatA%3D&reserved=0 | | -- | Joachim Breitner | mail@joachim-breitner.de | | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joachim | - | breitner.de%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C12780b1684b64d7b | dd6608d9449cd3c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63761626273003 | 2384%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1 | haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Ao2perWppuz85dmuTZUZRZ0ogtDOUW3EZ2b00rH | wgPc%3D&reserved=0 | | | _______________________________________________ | ghc-steering-committee mailing list | ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.haske | ll.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-steering- | committee&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C12780b1684b64d7bdd660 | 8d9449cd3c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637616262730032384% | 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwi | LCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=si1nlH3Y%2BVSIU9q3pDaSLfCqIOXAGY8bxX2l3thWat | A%3D&reserved=0