
On 10 Jan 2011, at 14:02, Gregory Collins wrote:
+1. I don't have a lot of skin in this particular game (I'm not currently a GHC contributor and am unlikely to become one in the near future), but I can offer some anecdotal evidence:
As another non-GHC contributor, my opinion should probably also count for little, but my experience with git has been poor. I have used git daily in my job for the last year. Like Simon PJ, I struggle to understand the underlying model of git, despite reading quite a few tutorials. I have a high failure rate with attempting anything beyond the equivalents of darcs record, push, and pull. When I use darcs, my local workflow typically involves lots of amend- record, cherry-picking, and multiple repos/branches. I have tried to do these things in git a few times and failed miserably. I am an old- fashioned unix command-line lover, but I find using the git command- line is next to impossible, and as a consequence do almost everything in git gui. If the gui interface does not let me do an action, then I often can't work out how to do it at all, even after googling. Mind you, some other people at work somehow manage to use git's support for branching reasonably successfully. But we have occasional mishaps where a repo is made totally unusable by somebody making a tiny mistake with their branching commands. Our standard advice at work for people who get their repo muddled is to throw it away, re- clone the master, and manually re-code their local changes from scratch (with the help of diff). If I were considering contributing minor patches to a project, the use of git would probably not deter me too much - I can cope with the simple stuff. But if I wanted more major involvement, git would definitely cause me to think twice about whether to bother. Regards, Malcolm

As another non-GHC contributor, my opinion should probably also count for little, but my experience with git has been poor.
I have used git daily in my job for the last year. Like Simon PJ, I struggle to understand the underlying model of git, despite reading quite a few tutorials. I have a high failure rate with attempting anything beyond the equivalents of darcs record, push, and pull.
I'm in exactly the same camp as Malcolm. I don't understand git, and I end up deleting the entire repo and starting again every time I try and do anything clever - something I've never needed to do with darcs. I consider the git equivalent of "darcs unrecord" to be "rm -rf", but I'm sure that's a lack of knowledge/intuition on my part. All my git dislike aside, I wouldn't worry about git and Windows. GHC on Windows already drags in plenty of dependencies from Cygwin or Mingw, both of which provide workable git binaries, and none of which ever seem to have caused a problem. The standard gui's (gitk and git gui) both work on Windows, and I certainly miss them when using darcs. Thanks, Neil

I just want to point out that since the last discussion we collected
some migration advice at
http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/GitForDarcsUsers
Some of it may be untested (or wrong), but it should be a good starting point.
On 10 January 2011 22:15, Neil Mitchell
As another non-GHC contributor, my opinion should probably also count for little, but my experience with git has been poor.
I have used git daily in my job for the last year. Like Simon PJ, I struggle to understand the underlying model of git, despite reading quite a few tutorials. I have a high failure rate with attempting anything beyond the equivalents of darcs record, push, and pull.
I'm in exactly the same camp as Malcolm. I don't understand git, and I end up deleting the entire repo and starting again every time I try and do anything clever - something I've never needed to do with darcs. I consider the git equivalent of "darcs unrecord" to be "rm -rf", but I'm sure that's a lack of knowledge/intuition on my part.
All my git dislike aside, I wouldn't worry about git and Windows. GHC on Windows already drags in plenty of dependencies from Cygwin or Mingw, both of which provide workable git binaries, and none of which ever seem to have caused a problem. The standard gui's (gitk and git gui) both work on Windows, and I certainly miss them when using darcs.
Thanks, Neil
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On 01/10/2011 08:52 AM, Malcolm Wallace wrote:
If I were considering contributing minor patches to a project, the use of git would probably not deter me too much - I can cope with the simple stuff. But if I wanted more major involvement, git would definitely cause me to think twice about whether to bother.
And just to show that you can't make everyone happy ... I'll put in an equal-and-opposite vote from Malcolm. GHC's use of darcs is a blocker for me even thinking about doing any work on GHC or the related libraries; my limited experience with darcs has been terrible, and the swearing I've heard about darcs makes me think my experience was not unique. Switching to git would make the chance that I'd do work on GHC nonzero. - Adam

So the basic point seems to be: "if you know how to use a tool, you don't
usually curse and swear when you use it. If you don't, you tend to swear a
lot!"
:)
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Adam Wick
On 01/10/2011 08:52 AM, Malcolm Wallace wrote:
If I were considering contributing minor patches to a project, the use of git would probably not deter me too much - I can cope with the simple stuff. But if I wanted more major involvement, git would definitely cause me to think twice about whether to bother.
And just to show that you can't make everyone happy ... I'll put in an equal-and-opposite vote from Malcolm. GHC's use of darcs is a blocker for me even thinking about doing any work on GHC or the related libraries; my limited experience with darcs has been terrible, and the swearing I've heard about darcs makes me think my experience was not unique. Switching to git would make the chance that I'd do work on GHC nonzero.
- Adam
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On 10 Jan 2011, at 22:37, Daniel Peebles wrote:
So the basic point seems to be: "if you know how to use a tool, you don't usually curse and swear when you use it. If you don't, you tend to swear a lot!"
There is a meta-point though - how easy is it to learn the tool? Regards, Malcolm

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Malcolm Wallace
As another non-GHC contributor, my opinion should probably also count for little, but my experience with git has been poor.
I have used git daily in my job for the last year. Like Simon PJ, I struggle to understand the underlying model of git, despite reading quite a few tutorials. I have a high failure rate with attempting anything beyond the equivalents of darcs record, push, and pull.
When I use darcs, my local workflow typically involves lots of amend-record, cherry-picking, and multiple repos/branches. I have tried to do these things in git a few times and failed miserably. I am an old-fashioned unix command-line lover, but I find using the git command-line is next to impossible, and as a consequence do almost everything in git gui. If the gui interface does not let me do an action, then I often can't work out how to do it at all, even after googling.
Mind you, some other people at work somehow manage to use git's support for branching reasonably successfully. But we have occasional mishaps where a repo is made totally unusable by somebody making a tiny mistake with their branching commands. Our standard advice at work for people who get their repo muddled is to throw it away, re-clone the master, and manually re-code their local changes from scratch (with the help of diff).
If I were considering contributing minor patches to a project, the use of git would probably not deter me too much - I can cope with the simple stuff. But if I wanted more major involvement, git would definitely cause me to think twice about whether to bother.
I agree with Malcolm (and with Neil's later post); I wanted to issue a me-too because of all of the pro-git messages I've been seeing. I've been using git for two years at my job. I still can't do anything but the most basic tasks. When I try to read the documentation, the documentation (a) is incomprehensible and (b) tells me that I'm stupid because I find it incomprehensible. I found darcs easy to learn and it has always made sense to me. I've lost work and had to recreate it by hand because of git. I've only ever been an occasional GHC contributor, so my opinion shouldn't count for much, but a switch to git would be one more small thing that would discourage me from contributing in the future. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc/ * Often in error, never in doubt "an intelligent person fights for lost causes,realizing that others are merely effects" -- E.E. Cummings

On 1/12/11 5:34 PM, Tim Chevalier wrote:
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Malcolm Wallace
wrote: If I were considering contributing minor patches to a project, the use of git would probably not deter me too much - I can cope with the simple stuff. But if I wanted more major involvement, git would definitely cause me to think twice about whether to bother.
I agree with Malcolm (and with Neil's later post); I wanted to issue a me-too because of all of the pro-git messages I've been seeing. I've been using git for two years at my job. I still can't do anything but the most basic tasks. When I try to read the documentation, the documentation (a) is incomprehensible and (b) tells me that I'm stupid because I find it incomprehensible. I found darcs easy to learn and it has always made sense to me. I've lost work and had to recreate it by hand because of git.
Me three, FWIW. Casual use of git is as easy as casual use of any modern VCS or DVCS, but even moderately sophisticated use is beyond my ken and (evidently) beyond the documenting abilities of the community. Anything that can't be clearly documented sets off warning bells. Conversely, moderately sophisticated use of darcs was extremely easy for me to acquire, and I find working with darcs repos much more pleasant than the alternatives I deal with regularly. I haven't had the opportunity to contribute to GHC yet, though I've been meaning to change that recently. I can't say whether git would cause me to decide against contributing, but it would raise the barrier to entry and make it more likely that I just wouldn't find the time to follow through with such contributions. -- Live well, ~wren
participants (7)
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Adam Wick
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Daniel Peebles
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Malcolm Wallace
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Neil Mitchell
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Thomas Schilling
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Tim Chevalier
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wren ng thornton