Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell and the Software design process

I definitely like that idea. :-) Is this similar to the notion of dependent types? Cheers, Greg On May 4, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Kyle Murphy wrote:

This whole thing seems to be touching on something I saw recently and was quite interested in. I found a site talking about static contract checking in Haskell, unfortunately I can't seem to find it now, but this paper ( http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/verify/haskellc... ) by Simon Peyton Jones among others seems to be about the same thing the site I found was talking about. The idea is to provide enough extra information to the type system to actually be able to verify that for instance, secondElement is always called with at least two items. If there exists in your code any situation in which the contract of a function could be violated (and therefore the possibility of blowing up at runtime), it no longer passes static type checking. The paper doesn't go much into the impact something like that would have on for instance GHCi, but if it was smart enough to inherit contracts from functions used and display these derived contracts this would be a very simple way to find all the edge cases of your code.

-R. Kyle Murphy -- Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:56, John Lato wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:

...

Yes, but I think that it is also important to distinguish between cases where an error is expected to be able to occur at runtime, and cases where an error could only occur at runtime *if the programmer screwed up*. If you structure your code to preserve and rely on the invariant that a given list has at least two elements, then it makes sense to call secondElement because if the list doesn't have two elements then you screwed up. Furthermore, there is no way to recover from such an error because you don't necessarily know where the invariant was broken because if you did you would have expected the possibility and already fixed it.

But hypothetically, suppose that you decided to use safeSecondElement anyway; now you have to deal with a Nothing in your code. Since, again, you don't know how to recover from this (as if you did, you wouldn't have gotten a Nothing in the first place), the only thing you can do is propagate it through the calculation, until it reaches someone who can recover from it, which means that now your whole calculation has to be muddled up with Maybe types wrapping every result purely to capture the possibility of a bug (or hardware fault, I suppose). If your program relied on this calculation, then it *still* has no choice but to terminate, and it *still* doesn't know where the error occurred --- although if you use something like ErrorT, you might at least know what the nature of the error was. So basically, you still end up with having to terminate your program and printing out an error message reporting the existence of a bug, but now you had to add error-propagating infrastructure to your entire program to do this that makes every function more complicated, rather than relying on the built-in infrastructure supplied by Haskell in the form of undefined, error, and throwing exceptions from pure code.

If you want to make your program fault tolerant against bugs --- which is reasonable in programs such as, say, a text editor, where inability to complete one task doesn't necessarily mean that the whole program has to stop --- then you are probably working in the IO monad and so have access to means of catching exceptions, which means that you might as well use them.

Thus, if you are dealing with invariants which only fail if you, the programmer, screwed something up, I don't really see the benefit of using functions like safeSecondElement over secondElement. Of course, situations in which you are *expecting* subcomputations to be able to fail at runtime if, say, the input is ill-formed, are a different matter.

I agree completely, although I'm not the first to point out that catching exceptions thrown from pure code can be tricky because they might not appear where you expect them to. Of course this can also indicate your architecture needs help.

John _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe