Oops, forgot to reply-to-all. This was a minor clarification on Wren's behalf (he can correct me if I'm wrong). But I agree with Bryan that it's time for the thread to die:
Do bear in mind that Java doesn't optimize ---that's the JIT's job
What are we supposed to make of that?
Why write that and not -- Do bear in mind that Smalltalk doesn't optimize that's the JIT's job -- or -- Do bear in mind that C doesn't optimize that's the compiler's job.
I believe this was referring to the fact that javac isn't an aggressive
optimizing compiler on the way from source to bytecode, i.e. it's the
bytecode->asm leg where the optimization effort is focused.
As an outsider to things Java that's something I've had trouble
understanding, actually. It doesn't seem like an either-or choice to me...
-Ryan
On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Isaac Gouy
From: wren ng thornton
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:30 PM
FWIW, that matches my expectations pretty well. Naive/standard Java
-snip- performing
slower than Smalltalk; highly tweaked Java using non-standard data types performing on-par with or somewhat faster than Smalltalk.
I have no difficulty believing that if you are talking about a 1996 Java reference implementation and a 1996 Smalltalk JIT VM.
I could believe that if you are comparing a naive Java program with a highly tweaked Smalltalk program.
That C is 7x faster is a bit on the high end, but for something like tsort I could imagine it'd be possible.
It's possible because it's possible to write a Java program to be slower than it need be :-)
Do bear in mind that Java doesn't optimize ---that's the JIT's job
What are we supposed to make of that?
Why write that and not -- Do bear in mind that Smalltalk doesn't optimize that's the JIT's job -- or -- Do bear in mind that C doesn't optimize that's the compiler's job.
-snip-
But even still, in my experience of using Smalltalk, the standard data structures are much better done and so they will be on-par with what you'd get from hand-tuning for Java. I've spent a lot of time trying to get decent performance out of Java, not so much with Smalltalk; but the performance with Smalltalk was sufficient that it wasn't needed so badly.
Do you have a specific example that you can share?
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