Re: [Haskell-cafe] Batteries included (Was: GHC is a monopoly compiler)

There is nothing of merit in Python libraries to be learned. Please don't ruin Haskell to the point of Python. On 28/09/16 08:25, Michael Sloan wrote:

Hi Olaf!

I believe I was the one to recently bring up the subject of "batteries included". I think wikipedia has a good treatment of it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language)#Libraries

...

Python has a large standard library, commonly cited as one of Python's greatest strengths,[77] providing tools suited to many tasks. This is deliberate and has been described as a "batteries included"[29] Python philosophy. For Internet-facing applications, many standard formats and protocols (such as MIME and HTTP) are supported. Modules for creating graphical user interfaces, connecting to relational databases, pseudorandom number generators, arithmetic with arbitrary precision decimals,[78] manipulating regular expressions, and doing unit testing are also included. Happily, there are efforts underway to fix this problem for Haskell. In particular, I think the team of people working on the new foundation library has a very good chance on delivering on the promise of having batteries included for Haskell. I implore the community to give foundation a try and pitch in to make it happen. Want to make sure we don't screw up new-base? Help guide foundation's development. Here is the link:

https://github.com/haskell-foundation/foundation/

Why is the Python <-> Haskell comparison unfair? We need to be realistic in our self analysis, and comparing to a very successful language can indicate what we need to do to make Haskell even more popular.

Fairness does not matter. The world is not fair, it is made up of people who have a wide range of opinions and attitude. Many in the community would love to share Haskell with more people. Why? Because it is such a valuable thing to learn, and one of the best general purpose programming languages out there.

Why identify Haskell as a research language, when it has so clearly grown far beyond that vision? Even if it is considered a research language, isn't it good for your research to reach the widest audience possible? This means that the fantastic ideas that make up Haskell / GHC can reach a wider audience. Some members of that audience are going to be designing future languages. Do we really want these future language designers to do that without learning Haskell? I would prefer that they learn it.

I have recently had a discussion, which I find quite disturbing, where prominent community members are essentially saying that they are content with (avoiding success (at all costs)), rather than (avoiding (success at all costs)). Take a look: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/54gm70/haskell_respect_spj/d83otar

Frankly, these statements frighten and confuse me. It seems blatantly unreasonable to me, to make the statement that we should be apathetic towards marketing and lowering the barrier to entry for Haskell.

Sincerely, Michael

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Olaf Klinke wrote:

...

Can someone please define what exactly a "batteries included" standard library is? IMHO that Python-Haskell comparison is unfair. Although both claim to be general-purpose languages, the focus in Haskell certainly has been on language research for most of its life. I recently hacked together a web client in python, my first project in that language. Documentation is excellent. Yet I am still horrified I had to use a language that provides so few static guarantees to control megawatt machines.

What puts me off Haskell nowadays is the direct result of Haskell's roots in language research: Often when I come across a package that does what I need, it uses the conduit, lens or another idiom, which are like a language in a language to learn. In milder ways Python seems to suffer the same problem. So please, developers: Write more batteries, but make them expose a neat lambda calculus interface if possible that can be combined freely with other batteries.

Regards, Olaf

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