Re: Hoogle and Network.Socket

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John Lato

25 Feb 2009 25 Feb '09

5:23 a.m.

Brandon Allbery wrote:

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On 2009 Feb 21, at 20:47, Jonathan Cast wrote:

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On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 07:25 -0700, John A. De Goes wrote:

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Not showing platform-specific packages by default *might* make package writers more likely to develop cross-platform packages. We've heard many times someone say, "I don't know if it works on Windows, never really thought of that."

Um, why *should* I think of that?

I have to second this; I'm a Unix sysadmin, 98% of the time if I'm writing a program it's for Unix *and* requires POSIX APIxs, and even if it could apply to Windows the program needed there would be very significantly different. And we have a Windows group for that.

I completely disagree, for the following reasons: 1. It's often easier (and almost never more difficult) to design for cross-platform support from the beginning than to add it later. 2. As of now, the "Windows Group" seems to be mostly Duncan. And while I greatly appreciate all the time and effort he continues to put into Windows support, he's got a lot to do and could use some help. If you can't help by joining the Windows group, at least you could make your own packages cross-platform. 3. It contributes to the "Avoid success at all costs" mantra often attributed to Haskell. I'm pretty sure that some people prefer this, but many (including myself) consider it at best misguided, and possibly harmful. 4. Cross-platform concerns are something that responsible developers need to consider, just like localization and i18n. I.e., why *shouldn't* you think of that? In some situations, it is true that a project is particularly tied to a Posix (or Windows) feature, and it wouldn't make sense to attempt a cross-platform version. If you're a Unix sysadmin and you use Haskell, that may be true most or all of the time. But for many packages, including most packages on hackage, it should be given consideration. Cheers, John Lato

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Jonathan Cast

25 Feb 25 Feb

10:49 a.m.

New subject: Hoogle and Network.Socket

On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 10:23 +0000, John Lato wrote:

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4. Cross-platform concerns are something that responsible developers need to consider, just like localization and i18n. I.e., why *shouldn't* you think of that?

Sorry, wtf? I have a *responsibility* to design software for a miserably poorly-designed God-awful platform I'd have to pay *extra* for, and even then couldn't get source to or *fix* if I found a bug? No. You don't control me, to the best of my knowledge you haven't done squat for me, and by trying to force me to develop to *that* platform you are actively attempting to harm me. *plonk* jcc

Sittampalam, Ganesh

11:29 a.m.

New subject: Hoogle and Network.Socket

Jonathan Cast wrote:

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On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 10:23 +0000, John Lato wrote:

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4. Cross-platform concerns are something that responsible developers need to consider, just like localization and i18n. I.e., why *shouldn't* you think of that?

Sorry, wtf? I have a *responsibility* to design software for a miserably poorly-designed God-awful platform I'd have to pay *extra* for, and even then couldn't get source to or *fix* if I found a bug?

I think there's a distinction between actively trying to support a specific platform, and simply trying to work in a cross-platform way, i.e. using the appropriate cross-platform APIs and packages where possible. Other people will already have done the work of making those things work on a specific platform, and if they don't work the issue can be raised with those people rather than you.

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No. You don't control me, to the best of my knowledge you haven't done squat for me, and by trying to force me to develop to *that* platform you are actively attempting to harm me.

*plonk*

Please could you moderate your tone? The original post wasn't aimed at you personally, it just expressed a general opinion about development practices, and certainly made no mention of forcing you or anyone else to do anything. By making it personal and expressing your response in rather intemperate language, you are adding more heat than light. In addition, the original subject of this thread is Hoogle, and if we take your comments in that context (and I do realise that your comments may have been generic rather than specific to Hoogle), then you have the choice of not using it at all, in which case you are not affected at all by its design choices; but if you do use it then the author certainly has done something for you, and his feeling that people should be encouraged to use cross-platform APIs where possible should certainly be accorded some respect. Cheers, Ganesh =============================================================================== Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html ===============================================================================

John Lato

6:24 p.m.

New subject: Hoogle and Network.Socket

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Jonathan Cast wrote:

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On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 10:23 +0000, John Lato wrote:

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4. Cross-platform concerns are something that responsible developers need to consider, just like localization and i18n. I.e., why *shouldn't* you think of that?

Sorry, wtf? I have a *responsibility* to design software for a miserably poorly-designed God-awful platform I'd have to pay *extra* for, and even then couldn't get source to or *fix* if I found a bug? No. You don't control me, to the best of my knowledge you haven't done squat for me, and by trying to force me to develop to *that* platform you are actively attempting to harm me.

I'm not trying to force you (or anyone else) to do anything. All I'm saying is that, as a developer, you should consider that your unix-dependent software will never reach over 80% of the computer users available. Now, I don't know anything about what sort of software you write, maybe your market segment is big iron so you've already made a decision to ignore Windows. Maybe you hate Windows so much you want to deprive its users of your code. I honestly don't care. As a former ASP.Net developer, I can assure you I have no love for MS. By responsible developer, I meant accountable for decisions made during development. It's fine to say you don't know if your code doesn't run on Windows because you've made a decision to not support it (or actively work against it, as the case may be). It's not fine to say you don't know because you never thought about it. Cheers, John Lato

Achim Schneider

7 p.m.

New subject: Hoogle and Network.Socket

John Lato wrote:

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you should consider that your unix-dependent software will never reach over 80% of the computer users available.

Now it's me... wtf? Why should I care? If those users are not even willing to bend their little finger to safe me from breaking my back attempting to support their wretched pile of junk that is being deliberately trying to boycott cross-platform compability, may they rot away, together with any notion of software quality or sense of responsibility to care about stuff you deem important that _might_ be left in the camp of microslaves. And Microsoft itself, while I'm at it. Being helpful and contributing to a gift society is all Good and Great, but there's a line that has to be drawn to prevent it from collapsing: Never, ever, let your actions be dictated by parasitary leeches. If you want it done, do it. Let your actions tell others that you are standing on the right side of that line, and you _will_ benefit from society. If not, STFU or GTFO. -- (c) this sig last receiving data processing entity. Inspect headers for copyright history. All rights reserved. Copying, hiring, renting, performance and/or quoting of this signature prohibited.

Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH

11:45 a.m.

New subject: Hoogle and Network.Socket

On 2009 Feb 25, at 5:23, John Lato wrote:

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Brandon Allbery wrote:

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I have to second this; I'm a Unix sysadmin, 98% of the time if I'm writing a program it's for Unix *and* requires POSIX APIxs, and even if it could apply to Windows the program needed there would be very significantly different. And we have a Windows group for that.

2. As of now, the "Windows Group" seems to be mostly Duncan. And

Wrong Windows group: Duncan doesn't work for us. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH

John Lato

5:29 p.m.

New subject: Hoogle and Network.Socket

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote:

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On 2009 Feb 25, at 5:23, John Lato wrote:

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Brandon Allbery wrote:

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I have to second this; I'm a Unix sysadmin, 98% of the time if I'm writing a program it's for Unix *and* requires POSIX APIxs, and even if it could apply to Windows the program needed there would be very significantly different. And we have a Windows group for that.

2. As of now, the "Windows Group" seems to be mostly Duncan. And

Wrong Windows group: Duncan doesn't work for us.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant a Windows group within the Haskell community, not within your company. Honestly, what I wrote wasn't directed at you. As I mentioned before, writing code as a Unix sysadmin has very different priorities than writing for many other problem domains. Most of your code wouldn't make sense outside a Unix context, whereas bytestrings, tries, or graph libraries would. Cheers, John Lato

Achim Schneider

5:55 p.m.

New subject: Hoogle and Network.Socket

John Lato wrote:

...

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote:

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On 2009 Feb 25, at 5:23, John Lato wrote:

...
Brandon Allbery wrote:

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I have to second this; I'm a Unix sysadmin, 98% of the time if I'm writing a program it's for Unix *and* requires POSIX APIxs, and even if it could apply to Windows the program needed there would be very significantly different. __And we have a Windows group for that.

2. __As of now, the "Windows Group" seems to be mostly Duncan. __And

Wrong Windows group: __Duncan doesn't work for us.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant a Windows group within the Haskell community, not within your company.

Honestly, what I wrote wasn't directed at you. As I mentioned before, writing code as a Unix sysadmin has very different priorities than writing for many other problem domains. Most of your code wouldn't make sense outside a Unix context, whereas bytestrings, tries, or graph libraries would.

I don't think it makes sense to talk about missing support on any platform: In a strict sense, how well a platform is supported is a function of how many people care to use it. While there seems to be a disparity between people developing programs on/for Windoze and people working on Windoze's cross-platform capabilities wrt. Haskell, this does not mean that you can rightfully expect people who chose not to use your favourite platform to give a damn about it. Search for allies amidst your pals. I honestly doubt that iff a viable[1] way to support multiple platforms exists any developer aware of it would choose a platform-locked in alternative. This is the only thing you can hope for, and the only thing you need to provide to other developers to get platform support for free. There's a free lunch, after all, but you gotta bring your own dishes. Or pay someone to spoon-feed you, but that's another issue. [1] Which mostly means "negligible additional work for the developer" -- (c) this sig last receiving data processing entity. Inspect headers for copyright history. All rights reserved. Copying, hiring, renting, performance and/or quoting of this signature prohibited.

Ketil Malde

26 Feb 26 Feb

3:05 a.m.

New subject: Hoogle and Network.Socket

John Lato writes:

...

Brandon Allbery wrote:

...
On 2009 Feb 21, at 20:47, Jonathan Cast wrote:

...
On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 07:25 -0700, John A. De Goes wrote:

...

...
...
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Not showing platform-specific packages by default *might* make package writers more likely to develop cross-platform packages.

You're saying a developer would think, oh, I need to test this on windows, or else Hoogle won't index it? I think it is way more likely that not showing platform-specific packages will result in yet another platform-specific library duplicating (the necessary) part of the functionality. On the other hand, displaying platfom-specific libraries might lead to them being more used, and in turn being ported.

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We've heard many times someone say, "I don't know if it works on Windows, never really thought of that."

I'd say it. I'd be happy to accept patches for Windows compatibility, but I'm not going to go out and buy an OS, install it, install all the required software and so on - just to tick a checkbox I'm not sure anybody - a potential user of software, that is, not a user of checkboxes - even cares about.

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I have to second this; I'm a Unix sysadmin, 98% of the time if I'm writing a program it's

I write programs to scratch *my* itches. I publish them because there's no reason not to, and hey, if it scratches your itch too, that's great. If you can improve it in some way, that's cool. But until you are the one paying my bills and putting my bread on my table, my responsibility to you stops there.

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1. It's often easier (and almost never more difficult) to design for cross-platform support from the beginning than to add it later.

I don't entirely agree. I have no particular experience writing cross-platform software, and no way to test it - chances are I'd just mess it up anyway. Better that an expert, with a real need to cater to, do this later on.

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2. As of now, the "Windows Group" seems to be mostly Duncan. And while I greatly appreciate all the time and effort he continues to put into Windows support, he's got a lot to do and could use some help. If you can't help by joining the Windows group, at least you could make your own packages cross-platform.

If you care about Windows support, the least you can do is to install my stuff, and mail me the required patches to make it work - or let me know if it works already. As far as I know, none of those 80% of users even know I exist.

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3. It contributes to the "Avoid success at all costs" mantra often attributed to Haskell. [...]

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4. Cross-platform concerns are something that responsible developers need to consider, just like localization and i18n. I.e., why *shouldn't* you think of that?

I don't consider those other two either, for about the same reasons. I don't need it for the software I'm writing, and I have no reason to believe anybody else does either. I suppose that one might think that my views here are quite selfish. Where's the community spirit? Where is social responsibility? In a way you'd be right, but I also think that if you start *imposing* this kind of responsibility and community spirit, you'd start to se less free software out there. The cost of releasing software is low, but hell, if I'm going to be flamed for it, the cost of *not* releasing it is not any higher. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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participants (6)

Achim Schneider
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
John Lato
Jonathan Cast
Ketil Malde
Sittampalam, Ganesh