Actually, yea. This is pretty nice. If either #9, #49 or #50 make it to the top of the list, can we ensure that this will be selectable as a variant? (If not, we can at least put it on cafe press and I'd buy the t-shirt :) ) 2009/3/19 Edward Kmett

Ooh, shiny!

2009/3/19 Warren Harris

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After spending a bit of time trying to decide how to vote, I ended up deciding that my favorite would be a hybrid of several of the designs (#9 & #49 FalconNL, and #50 George Pollard). It's probably too late to include this in the voting, but here it is nonetheless:

(My primary criterion is "would I wear this t-shirt?") :-)

Warren _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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-- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein

Jon Fairbairn wrote:

semi-rant warning:

This whole badge/logo business seems to me to be an excellent example of Parkinson's law of triviality (choosing the colour of the bikeshed). We have a large (too large) number of variations on relatively few themes and a really sophisticated voting system, but no very clear idea of what they're for and no explanation (such as my "of type Haskell" above) of why the candidates are the way they are.

I didn't join in much to the earlier discussion because I thought things would work out to something sensible in the end, but it doesn't look like that happened. Work out what the problem is before putting the solution up for election!

I agree with this. I have voted, but as with many others I found the process very cumbersome, and I don't think it really expresses my opinions properly. I'm concerned that this process may well end up producing a outcome that's worse than the current situation but will have some aura of legitimacy because of the vote. Cheers, Ganesh =============================================================================== Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html ===============================================================================

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"Neil" == Neil Mitchell writes:

>>> semi-rant warning: >>> >>> This whole badge/logo business seems to me to be an excellent >>> example of Parkinson's law of triviality (choosing the colour >>> of the bikeshed). We have a large (too large) number of >>> variations on relatively few themes and a really sophisticated >>> voting system, but no very clear idea of what they're for and >>> no explanation (such as my "of type Haskell" above) of why the >>> candidates are the way they are. >>> >>> I didn't join in much to the earlier discussion because I >>> thought things would work out to something sensible in the >>> end, but it doesn't look like that happened. Work out what the >>> problem is before putting the solution up for election! >> >> I agree with this. I have voted, but as with many others I >> found the process very cumbersome, and I don't think it really >> expresses my opinions properly. I'm concerned that this process >> may well end up producing a outcome that's worse than the >> current situation but will have some aura of legitimacy because >> of the vote. Neil> I totally agree. I haven't voted, because if I had an hour Neil> to spare I'd much rather spend the time actually writing Neil> Haskell. I can't rank 100's of logos, realistically anything Neil> more than about 10 and I don't have a chance of even Neil> figuring out which is my favourite. I agree too. I only voted because one entry stood out above all the others in my eyes (Conal's). -- Colin Adams Preston Lancashire

Hi Jon, I agree with much of your rant, and would agree that the logo is probably the least interesting about haskell, but I think that it's worth spending a little time to spiffy up haskell's image from a marketing perspective. Although I downplayed much of my design decisions by focusing on the logo's t-shirt potential, I just wanted to say that a lot of thought did go into the design aspects of what I sent out. A logo needs to be a crisp graphic, needs to draw people in who don't yet understand ("pure lazy fun-- huh?" or "what's with that Amtrak symbol?") and convey a deeper meaning to those who do understand (the interplay of the monad and lambda). I think many of the logos convey some or all of these points, although many also fall short. This is all off in the realm of marketing psychology, which is a far cry from programming language design, but important in the overall product perception nonetheless. The other thing about this logo design that is so great is the community process that's creating it. It's the open source process in a nutshell -- the brightest minds playing off each other to build something bigger than the sum of the parts. So even if the new logo ends up looking like something that rolled down hill collecting rubbish, the story behind it will be brilliant -- like a family photo reflecting who we are and how we do things here. I hesitated in sending my write-in candidate in the first place because I didn't want to derail the process that's underway, but did in the end because I thought I saw something that was a little bigger than some of the parts here, and thought that others might be encouraged if they saw it too. Now at the risk of further muddling things, I'll just say that I like your idea of focusing on the :: symbol, and just wanted to provide my interpretation: I think that's not bad either, although I think it loses a little of the distinction and intrigue of Pollard's lovely monad/lambda symbol with its curved edges. I'd be happy to wear this one too though... actually, given what I said above, I'll be happy to wear any of them! Warren On Mar 20, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Jon Fairbairn wrote:

Warren Harris writes:

...

After spending a bit of time trying to decide how to vote, I ended up deciding that my favorite would be a hybrid of several of the designs (#9 & #49 FalconNL, and #50 George Pollard). It's probably too late to include this in the voting, but here it is nonetheless:

That's quite nice, but the >>= lambda thing looks too busy to me. What surprises me is that none(?) of the candidates makes use of the "type" symbol. I'd like to see a version something like yours, but with :: instead of >>=/lambda

::Haskell

means "of type Haskell", which is what we want people's programmes to be. Colour it interestingly and choose a good font and there you are. The interestingly coloured "::" on its own would make a reasonable choice for a badge (eg for a favicon).

* * *

semi-rant warning:

This whole badge/logo business seems to me to be an excellent example of Parkinson's law of triviality (choosing the colour of the bikeshed). We have a large (too large) number of variations on relatively few themes and a really sophisticated voting system, but no very clear idea of what they're for and no explanation (such as my "of type Haskell" above) of why the candidates are the way they are.

I didn't join in much to the earlier discussion because I thought things would work out to something sensible in the end, but it doesn't look like that happened. Work out what the problem is before putting the solution up for election!

I agree that the current badge is horrid (it looks like something that rolled down a hill and collected some rubbish on the way), but in the absence of a reasoned replacement, the first step would simply be to get rid of it. Designing these things isn't trivial, and while many of the candidates are quite good pieces of art, a badge needs to be more than that. Not that professional designers do better in general; only a few of them are any good at it -- the rest rely on most people not knowing pretty from appropriate and just rake in the cash.

-- Jón Fairbairn Jon.Fairbairn@cl.cam.ac.uk

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Anton Tayanovskyy wrote:

Didn't Haskell have a syntax king? I vote for a logo king: let Don Steward decide which logo is best. --A

I propose to use concordet voting to appoint a new king from the 100 aspiring candidates ... ;) Regards, apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com

Warren Harris writes:

Hi Jon,

I agree with much of your rant, and would agree that the logo is probably the least interesting about haskell, but I think that it's worth spending a little time to spiffy up haskell's image from a marketing perspective.

I don't disagree with that. I'm complaining about the method...

Although I downplayed much of my design decisions by focusing on the logo's t-shirt potential, I just wanted to say that a lot of thought did go into the design aspects of what I sent out.

I don't dispute that either. My point (about lack of justification) was not that people didn't put thought into their efforts, but that there's no mention of it on the listing.

A logo needs to be a crisp graphic, needs to draw people in who don't yet understand ("pure lazy fun-- huh?" or "what's with that Amtrak symbol?")

That's where that particular design falls down. >>= is an ugly symbol in the first place, and while the pun with a lambda in the middle provides some intellectual satisfaction, it doesn't outweigh the fussiness of its shape or the irrelevant associations. I hadn't thought of Amtrak, but it made me think of the flags of Mozambique and South Africa.

This is all off in the realm of marketing psychology, which is a far cry from programming language design, but important in the overall product perception nonetheless.

Again, I don't dispute the importance, but...

The other thing about this logo design that is so great is the community process that's creating it. It's the open source process in a nutshell -- the brightest minds playing off each other to build something bigger than the sum of the parts.

That could happen, but a vote by people who haven't been given a clue isn't the way to get there.

So even if the new logo ends up looking like something that rolled down hill collecting rubbish, the story behind it will be brilliant -- like a family photo reflecting who we are and how we do things here.

Maybe so, but the story isn't what's important as far as your first point is concerned.

I hesitated in sending my write-in candidate in the first place because I didn't want to derail the process that's underway,

derailing it is necessary if we are to get "the brightest minds playing off each other"

Now at the risk of further muddling things, I'll just say that I like your idea of focusing on the :: symbol, and just wanted to provide my interpretation:

That design is more like it! I would vote for that.

I think that's not bad either, although I think it loses a little of the distinction and intrigue of Pollard's lovely monad/lambda symbol with its curved edges.

In the absence of the :: version, I'd might go for that one, but I think it really isn't simple enough, though to properly decide between them, we'd have to try them out on non-Haskellers. -- Jón Fairbairn Jon.Fairbairn@cl.cam.ac.uk

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:52:49PM +0100, Achim Schneider wrote:

Jon Fairbairn wrote:

...

That's where that particular design falls down. >>= is an ugly symbol in the first place, and while the pun with a lambda in the middle provides some intellectual satisfaction, it doesn't outweigh the fussiness of its shape or the irrelevant associations. I hadn't thought of Amtrak, but it made me think of the flags of Mozambique and South Africa.

I had to google for Amtrak, I didn't know they even existed. I did know that Mozambique and South Africa exist, and googling up their flags I discovered that there are as many resemblances to lambda-bind as there are to the Logo to the Deutsche Bank. Amtrak looks wholly different to me: It doesn't even have straight lines, and it's 3d.

Amtrak changed their logo in 2000; the old logo looked like >>=. See the wikipedia article. Amusingly, I also learned from the wikipedia article that critics dubbed this logo the "pointless arrow". =) -Brent

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009, Jon Fairbairn wrote:

::Haskell

See the lamp in logo 33 at http://www.haskell.org/logos/poll.html