Haskellers.com idea: strike forces

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Michael Snoyman

29 Oct 2010 29 Oct '10

4:06 a.m.

Hey all, In the recent discussion about the status of email support in Haskell, the idea of strike forces to tackle these big problems came up. I think one dilemma people face when trying to coordinate such a venture is the logistics: where to organize, how to advertise it, where to have discussions that can be publicly accessible. This may be something that the Haskellers website can help address. Here's an idea, please give me any feedback you have (especially the negative kind): * Anyone can create a "strike force", by specifying a name for the strike force and giving a description. That person will automatically be the administrator for the strike force. * Anyone on Haskellers can watch a strike force; this will contribute to its popularity. The most popular strike forces will be shown at the top of the listings, to give an idea of what projects are active and which are dead. * People must apply to be members of a strike force, and be approved by a strike force admin. Strike force admins also have the right to add new admins/remove current admins. * Admins can add links to other websites, list Hackage packages that are part of this strike force's scope, etc. Ideas on this are welcome. * There will be some kind of discussion forum. The only thing I know for certain about this is we want to have a news feed to give updates on what's happening. I'm open to suggestions on what to implement here, but some ideas: ** A request/bug tracker. ** Free-form message boards. Possibly requires moderation for non-members. ** I'm not certain if it should just be a single thread, multi discussion threads, hierarchical discussions like Reddit, etc. Please let me know what you think. And if you think this is a foolish idea that won't help the community out, please let me know that too. Michael

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Ivan Lazar Miljenovic

29 Oct 29 Oct

4:14 a.m.

On 29 October 2010 19:06, Michael Snoyman wrote:

...

Hey all,

In the recent discussion about the status of email support in Haskell, the idea of strike forces to tackle these big problems came up. I think one dilemma people face when trying to coordinate such a venture is the logistics: where to organize, how to advertise it, where to have discussions that can be publicly accessible.

This may be something that the Haskellers website can help address. Here's an idea, please give me any feedback you have (especially the negative kind):

* Anyone can create a "strike force", by specifying a name for the strike force and giving a description. That person will automatically be the administrator for the strike force.

* Anyone on Haskellers can watch a strike force; this will contribute to its popularity. The most popular strike forces will be shown at the top of the listings, to give an idea of what projects are active and which are dead.

* People must apply to be members of a strike force, and be approved by a strike force admin. Strike force admins also have the right to add new admins/remove current admins.

* Admins can add links to other websites, list Hackage packages that are part of this strike force's scope, etc. Ideas on this are welcome.

* There will be some kind of discussion forum. The only thing I know for certain about this is we want to have a news feed to give updates on what's happening. I'm open to suggestions on what to implement here, but some ideas:

** A request/bug tracker. ** Free-form message boards. Possibly requires moderation for non-members. ** I'm not certain if it should just be a single thread, multi discussion threads, hierarchical discussions like Reddit, etc.

Please let me know what you think. And if you think this is a foolish idea that won't help the community out, please let me know that too.

I _really_ like this idea. With this nebulous proposal of yours, is there any way of maybe integrating the various services already hosted at haskell.org and its sub-domains (mailing lists, tracs, etc.) or are you looking at "re-inventing the wheel"? Rather than just "strike-forces", this could become more Haskell Special Interest Groups; that way, if someone wants help with a particular area of Haskell (web development, graph theory, etc.) they can contact that SIG rather than -cafe in general. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic Ivan.Miljenovic@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com

Michael Snoyman

5:19 a.m.

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote:

...

On 29 October 2010 19:06, Michael Snoyman wrote:

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[..]

I _really_ like this idea. With this nebulous proposal of yours, is there any way of maybe integrating the various services already hosted at haskell.org and its sub-domains (mailing lists, tracs, etc.) or are you looking at "re-inventing the wheel"?

Rather than just "strike-forces", this could become more Haskell Special Interest Groups; that way, if someone wants help with a particular area of Haskell (web development, graph theory, etc.) they can contact that SIG rather than -cafe in general.

Mental note: must remember to use word "nebulous" more often, I like it. Anyway, integration with existing services would be very good, but I doubt it will be possible. I don't think there's a way to automatically create a mailing list, trac project, and so on and so forth, and I'm not certain it would make sense to make such a feature possible. I suppose something like this would be a possible goal to look towards if we ever start working more seriously on single-signon and the like, but for now, I think we're stuck reinventing the wheel. Your SIG idea sounds possible, let's play it out. I'll go with web development, since I'm personally involved there. I suppose the idea would be I could create such an interest group, and hopefully developers on other frameworks (Happstack and Snap for instance) could join the team. Users may come and start requesting features, and everyone interested in solving the problem could participate in the discussion. Seems like it would fit right in with the strike force proposal, just under a different name. I have no objection to trying to name this something more generic such as SIG. Michael

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic

5:30 a.m.

On 29 October 2010 20:19, Michael Snoyman wrote:

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Mental note: must remember to use word "nebulous" more often, I like it.

As do I ;-)

...

Anyway, integration with existing services would be very good, but I doubt it will be possible. I don't think there's a way to automatically create a mailing list, trac project, and so on and so forth, and I'm not certain it would make sense to make such a feature possible. I suppose something like this would be a possible goal to look towards if we ever start working more seriously on single-signon and the like, but for now, I think we're stuck reinventing the wheel.

At the very least, there could be a link to a pre-existing mailing list and trac instance. For those projects/strikeforces/SIGs that don't have existing bug trackers, which would you think of using? Are you suddenly going to write a new one in Haskell? :p

...

Your SIG idea sounds possible, let's play it out. I'll go with web development, since I'm personally involved there. I suppose the idea would be I could create such an interest group, and hopefully developers on other frameworks (Happstack and Snap for instance) could join the team. Users may come and start requesting features, and everyone interested in solving the problem could participate in the discussion. Seems like it would fit right in with the strike force proposal, just under a different name. I have no objection to trying to name this something more generic such as SIG.

Yeah, to me "strike force" sounds like a more temporary thing designed to get something done, and then dissolve once that library is written. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic Ivan.Miljenovic@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com

Michael Snoyman

5:39 a.m.

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote:

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On 29 October 2010 20:19, Michael Snoyman wrote:

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Anyway, integration with existing services would be very good, but I doubt it will be possible. I don't think there's a way to automatically create a mailing list, trac project, and so on and so forth, and I'm not certain it would make sense to make such a feature possible. I suppose something like this would be a possible goal to look towards if we ever start working more seriously on single-signon and the like, but for now, I think we're stuck reinventing the wheel.

At the very least, there could be a link to a pre-existing mailing list and trac instance.

I think the SIG admin will be in charge of adding any links he/she wishes. Maybe we'll make the discussion/tracker stuff optional.

...

For those projects/strikeforces/SIGs that don't have existing bug trackers, which would you think of using? Are you suddenly going to write a new one in Haskell? :p

Umm.... apparently. I'm not really planning on anything complex, but this is the area where I really wanted community feedback. Here's an example proposal for how it would work: There's no separate tracker; instead, there is a discussion board only. Members of the SIG can create new topics and add messages to existing topics at will. Non-members must have these actions moderated by an admin. The topics will appear on the SIG page, and there will be a news feed to get notified of new topics/messages. Messages will be linear within a topic. This is just about the simplest proposal I can come up with. We could add statuses (open, assigned, resolved, irrelevant) to topics, or other things like that. Is this reimplementing trac in an inferior way? Yes. Will this make it easier for users to participate in multiple SIGs and follow lots of different topics simultaneously? I believe so.

...

...
Your SIG idea sounds possible, let's play it out. I'll go with web development, since I'm personally involved there. I suppose the idea would be I could create such an interest group, and hopefully developers on other frameworks (Happstack and Snap for instance) could join the team. Users may come and start requesting features, and everyone interested in solving the problem could participate in the discussion. Seems like it would fit right in with the strike force proposal, just under a different name. I have no objection to trying to name this something more generic such as SIG.

Yeah, to me "strike force" sounds like a more temporary thing designed to get something done, and then dissolve once that library is written.

Sounds good. Which makes me think we should have a "SIG status" field, letting admins specify that their SIGs have been dissolved. Michael

Heinrich Apfelmus

30 Oct 30 Oct

4:23 a.m.

Michael Snoyman wrote:

...

In the recent discussion about the status of email support in Haskell, the idea of strike forces to tackle these big problems came up. I think one dilemma people face when trying to coordinate such a venture is the logistics: where to organize, how to advertise it, where to have discussions that can be publicly accessible.

This may be something that the Haskellers website can help address.

That's a great idea! Concerning the details of how things should work, it's probably best if you simply start a SIG yourself (you mentioned web development) and code everything that comes up on the fly. There is no better way to ensure usability of an application than to write it while heavily using it (and aiming for a large usability / features ratio). Regards, Heinrich Apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com

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Heinrich Apfelmus
Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
Michael Snoyman