I'd just like to point out or reiterate the odd rise in trolling and the recent announcements of haskell-2010...

Just wait until haskell-2012 is announced with nonexistential aka eschatological types spelled "notany a. World". It evaluates to a new form of bottom that blackholes the entire world...

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 6:36 AM, Evan Laforge wrote:

...

I'd just like to point out or reiterate the odd rise in trolling and the recent announcements of haskell-2010...

Just wait until haskell-2012 is announced with nonexistential aka eschatological types spelled "notany a. World".

It evaluates to a new form of bottom that blackholes the entire world...

I hear prototypes are already being used at the LHC for this very purpose. Well-typed doomsday machines can't go wrong ;-) D -- Dougal Stanton dougal@dougalstanton.net // http://www.dougalstanton.net

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:

Friends

Amen !

Hi Simon and others, Personally I don't see anything wrong with this guy's line of questioning. He wants some proof that Haskell can live up to some of the claims made about it. There's a lot of selling of languages like Clojure, Scala, and Haskell going on that have real world examples showing how code compares from one language to the next (sometimes unfairly I'll add, in that the code that one person writes in one language, does not illustrate the best of that language). I will admit I missed out on the optimization thread that people refer to. I guess I could read the archives, but the tone of this thread makes me think it's not worthwhile. I think what it boils down to is Haskell use is a choice that every person gets to make for their spare time projects and if you're lucky enough to have such a choice at your job, why not check it out and see for yourself? If one disagrees with the claims of the salesmen, perhaps a trial period will convince one otherwise, it's not like it costs anything but time. There's not even a 90 day money back guarantee to worry about. As for trolls on the mailing list, I personally do not have time to read every message that comes through haskell-cafe because the level of activity is higher than my available bandwidth for reading emails. As such, I often press this lovely button the people who made my computer and operating system so thoughtfully designed called "delete". Man does that thing ever work wonders... Then people can refrain from increasing the magnitude of the denominator in the signal to noise ratio that has a nice value at the moment here in this community. Sadly I think I just did the opposite, but since this is a cafe, and I had something to say, and I said it, I don't feel so badly about it, and won't comment on it again. Just my 2 cents, which might be all I have left these days :-) Dave On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:34 AM, Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:

Friends

One of the absolutely best things about the Haskell community is that it is almost invariably respectful and usually friendly. People often remark on this when they join the community. Beginner questions are greeted with polite and helpful replies. Category theory and elementary type errors show up in successive messages. Etc.

But thread is an exception.

If you think someone is talking nonsense, I think the best policy is to ignore it or reply privately (not to the list); then the thread dies. I find derogatory discussion of a particular person quite discouraging. It is likely to be unjust, and it encourages more of the same. It's like littering your own house.

Respect, guys, please.

Simon

| >> This "troll" was, apparently, invited by one of the Simons | >> onto the Haskell' list, then asked to move his spiels here. | | I am informed that the "invitation" I was referring to was actually | about his being invited *out*, not in, so his origin is still a | mystery and "troll" is likely appropriate. (I can't say he's | demonstrated much of a mathematical basis for his trollery; only a | propensity for pompous declarations, and deflection when challenged on | them. Put up or shut up, troll.) _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Keith Sheppard wrote:

There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism and debate. We should welcome it and I think that the initial response did. But the OP's follow up of:

"It will be better for all of you to figure it out for yourselves and gain more experience about what is out there. Haskell isn't the world. Haskell would be the cutting edge if it didn't have competition."

tells me that the post was not intended to be constructive

In which case -- I believe David was arguing -- we ignore it and continue reading the constructive threads. Luke

Best -Keith

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:58 AM, David Leimbach wrote:

...

Hi Simon and others, Personally I don't see anything wrong with this guy's line of questioning.  He wants some proof that Haskell can live up to some of the claims made about it.  There's a lot of selling of languages like Clojure, Scala, and Haskell going on that have real world examples showing how code compares from one language to the next (sometimes unfairly I'll add, in that the code that one person writes in one language, does not illustrate the best of that language). I will admit I missed out on the optimization thread that people refer to.  I guess I could read the archives, but the tone of this thread makes me think it's not worthwhile. I think what it boils down to is Haskell use is a choice that every person gets to make for their spare time projects and if you're lucky enough to have such a choice at your job, why not check it out and see for yourself? If one disagrees with the claims of the salesmen, perhaps a trial period will convince one otherwise, it's not like it costs anything but time.  There's not even a 90 day money back guarantee to worry about. As for trolls on the mailing list, I personally do not have time to read every message that comes through haskell-cafe because the level of activity is higher than my available bandwidth for reading emails.  As such, I often press this lovely button the people who made my computer and operating system so thoughtfully designed called "delete".  Man does that thing ever work wonders... Then people can refrain from increasing the magnitude of the denominator in the signal to noise ratio that has a nice value at the moment here in this community.  Sadly I think I just did the opposite, but since this is a cafe, and I had something to say, and I said it, I don't feel so badly about it, and won't comment on it again. Just my 2 cents, which might be all I have left these days :-) Dave

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:34 AM, Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:

...

Friends

One of the absolutely best things about the Haskell community is that it is almost invariably respectful and usually friendly.  People often remark on this when they join the community.  Beginner questions are greeted with polite and helpful replies.  Category theory and elementary type errors show up in successive messages.  Etc.

But thread is an exception.

If you think someone is talking nonsense, I think the best policy is to ignore it or reply privately (not to the list); then the thread dies.  I find derogatory discussion of a particular person quite discouraging.  It is likely to be unjust, and it encourages more of the same.  It's like littering your own house.

Respect, guys, please.

Simon

| >> This "troll" was, apparently, invited by one of the Simons | >> onto the Haskell' list, then asked to move his spiels here. | | I am informed that the "invitation" I was referring to was actually | about his being invited *out*, not in, so his origin is still a | mystery and "troll" is likely appropriate.  (I can't say he's | demonstrated much of a mathematical basis for his trollery; only a | propensity for pompous declarations, and deflection when challenged on | them.  Put up or shut up, troll.) _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

_______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

-- keithsheppard.name _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe