woops, forgot to reply all ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Eli Frey Date: Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] education or experience? To: Mike Meyer So, to put my words in perspective: I am a 23 year old who dropped out when they were 16. I only just entered industry, so it's difficult to say where I have gaps in my knowledge or what I could have gotten if I'd been to college. That being said, I can't really say I'd rather to have done it any other way. Jerzy makes a good point that you might not be the best judge of what you should learn. You arn't yet an expert, and having one help guide you could be very valuable. I certainly wish I'd had a mentor through my experience. At the same token, you might just be the most qualified person to say what you should learn, exactly because you will be drawn to what fascinates you. If you're already showing interest in Haskell, there is a great deal of material produced by the community that I'm sure will wet your apatite in the right directions When I entered the industry, I got the attention of many well-respected companies. Sure there were some places that turned me away because I didn't have a degree, but they weren't the kinds of places I'de like to work anyway. At the end of the day, my dream employer said "come back and talk with us when you have more experience," and I landed a job where I enjoy my boss (an under-considered perk, IMHO. This is worth many $ to me), am given freedom/ownership of my work, and am greatly appreciated and nurtured in my growth. I often chuckle to myself at night about my freedom from student loans, too :P. Cheers, Eli On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Mike Meyer wrote:

Heinrich Apfelmus wrote:

...

Christopher Howard wrote: Concerning a university education, there are two approaches> 1. I want to learn as much as possible 2. I want to learn just enough to get a high-paying job

There's actually a third approach ( and probably more):

3. I want to learn to do this job as well as possible.

...

On the other hand, approaching university from the second point of view

usually does not justify the cost for the little benefit you obtain this way. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the tuition costs in the U.S. strongly suggest the second approach. To avoid this, I recommend to either go abroad or become very good and acquire a scholarship.

That really depends on the job at in question. When I was looking for entry level programming jobs, not having a degree meant you never got past the hr department. Getting a degree (pretty much any degree) was required to get the high-paying job. I'm willing to believe that's no longer the case for programmers, because academia has consistently failed to deliver sufficient quality programmers to meet industry needs. On the other hand (watching my sons deal with the job market), the litmus test for "you've got what it takes to survive in the system" is now a masters, not a bachelors, so maybe you're wrong about that.

The other thing to consider is what your long-term goals are. Do you want to be a code monkey all your life? Or do you aspire to more? What are the requirements for that "more"? Getting a degree now may well avoid doing it later.

Finally, with approach #3, you really need a mentor who can tell you whether or not you're doing a competent job. You're much more likely to find that in a university environment than trying to learn things by yourself. Joining an open source project might get it for you. -- Sent from my Android tablet with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my swyping.

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On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Eli Frey wrote:

So, to put my words in perspective: I am a 23 year old who dropped out when they were 16. I only just entered industry, so it's difficult to say where I have gaps in my knowledge or what I could have gotten if I'd been to college. That being said, I can't really say I'd rather to have done it any other way.

Jerzy makes a good point that you might not be the best judge of what you should learn. You arn't yet an expert, and having one help guide you could be very valuable. I certainly wish I'd had a mentor through my experience. At the same token, you might just be the most qualified person to say what you should learn, exactly because you will be drawn to what fascinates you. If you're already showing interest in Haskell, there is a great deal of material produced by the community that I'm sure will wet your apatite in the right directions

When I entered the industry, I got the attention of many well-respected companies. Sure there were some places that turned me away because I didn't have a degree, but they weren't the kinds of places I'de like to work anyway. At the end of the day, my dream employer said "come back and talk with us when you have more experience," and I landed a job where I enjoy my boss (an under-considered perk, IMHO. This is worth many $ to me), am given freedom/ownership of my work, and am greatly appreciated and nurtured in my growth.

I often chuckle to myself at night about my freedom from student loans, too :P.

Cheers, Eli

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Mike Meyer wrote:

...

Heinrich Apfelmus wrote:

...

Christopher Howard wrote: Concerning a university education, there are two approaches> 1. I want to learn as much as possible 2. I want to learn just enough to get a high-paying job

There's actually a third approach ( and probably more):

3. I want to learn to do this job as well as possible.

...

On the other hand, approaching university from the second point of view

usually does not justify the cost for the little benefit you obtain this way. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the tuition costs in the U.S. strongly suggest the second approach. To avoid this, I recommend to either go abroad or become very good and acquire a scholarship.

That really depends on the job at in question. When I was looking for entry level programming jobs, not having a degree meant you never got past the hr department. Getting a degree (pretty much any degree) was required to get the high-paying job. I'm willing to believe that's no longer the case for programmers, because academia has consistently failed to deliver sufficient quality programmers to meet industry needs. On the other hand (watching my sons deal with the job market), the litmus test for "you've got what it takes to survive in the system" is now a masters, not a bachelors, so maybe you're wrong about that.

The other thing to consider is what your long-term goals are. Do you want to be a code monkey all your life? Or do you aspire to more? What are the requirements for that "more"? Getting a degree now may well avoid doing it later.

Finally, with approach #3, you really need a mentor who can tell you whether or not you're doing a competent job. You're much more likely to find that in a university environment than trying to learn things by yourself. Joining an open source project might get it for you. -- Sent from my Android tablet with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my swyping.

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