Hi, John. I am trying JHC in a small embedded system (Medical instruments). The software is written in Clean, and I am translating to Haskell. You may want to take a look at my page: http://www.discenda.org/med/ I am writing because I found something in JHC that smells like a bug. The program compiles without a single complaint both in GHC and JHC, but the resulting binary file does not work in JHC. I wrote a simplified example so you can spot the problem easily. The original program is used to design and simplify digital circuits for sensors (capnograms, electrocardiograms, electroencephalograms, electromyograms, and temperature). It seems that JHC is not able to deal with the trees representing the circuits. Here is a very small program. All it does is to read a tree and show it: {- file: tree.hs -} {- compile: jhc tree.hs -dc -o jtree } import System (getArgs) import System.IO import IO   data Op = AND | OR | NOT deriving (Show, Read)     data Tree= L Int | T Op [Tree] deriving (Show, Read)    main= do   putStrLn "Give me a tree:"   s <- getLine   let xx= read s   putStrLn (show (xx::Tree))     Here is what happens when I try to run it: philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtree Give me a tree: T AND (L 1, L 2) jtree_code.c:2670: case fell off Aborted It seems that the problem is in the Read class, since it works if I use the Show class only: import System (getArgs) import System.IO import IO   data Op = AND | OR | NOT deriving (Show, Read)     data Tree= L Int | T Op [Tree] deriving (Show, Read)    main= do   putStrLn "Give me a tree:"   s <- getLine   let xx= T AND [L 1, L 2]   putStrLn (show (xx::Tree)) I hope you can fix it. --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Meacham wrote: From: John Meacham Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Opinion about JHC To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org Received: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 1:37 AM On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 07:41:54PM -0800, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

I discovered a Haskell compiler that generates very small and fast code. In fact, it beats Clean. It has the following properties:

Excellent. that was my goal ;)

1 --- One can cross-compile programs easily. For instance, here is how I generated code for Windows:

jhc --cross -mwin32 genetic.hs -o genetic

Yup. This was a major goal. compiling for iPhones and embedded arches is just as easy assuming you have a gcc toolchain set up. (at least with the hacked iPhone SDK.. I have never tried it with the official one)

2 -- It seems to be quite complete.

3 -- However, it often compiles a file, but the program fails to run.

I have the following questions about it:

1 -- How active is the team who is writing the JHC compiler?

Hi, I am the main contributor, but others are welcome and several have made signifigant contributions. Development tends to be spurty. A lot of work will get done in a short amount of time, this generally corresponds to when an external contributor gets involved and the back and forth helps stimulate patches on my part to complement theirs. Although I have not been able to devote a lot of my time to jhc in the past, hopefully this will change in the not to distant future and I will be able to work on it full time.

2 -- Is it complete Haskell? The author claims that it is; it compiled all programs that I wrote, but that does not mean much, because my programs are quite simple.

It does Haskell 98 and several extensions, which is pretty much what GHC does. However, it does not implement the same set of extensions as GHC so this causes issues as a lot of people use GHC extensions extensively. I plan on supporting all of Haskell' of course, and the popular GHC extensions to help compatibility. Not all are implemented.

3 -- Why the Haskell community almost never talks about JHC?

Part of it is that I am not very good at advocacy. I don't always post announcements on the main haskell lists figuring the interested parties are on the jhc list already. I do try to make jhc good, fast, and usable, I always hoped someone better at advocacy than me would join the project :) In truth, I think the spurty nature of development also affects this, the list will be quite for a long time with a flurry of development lasting a few weeks occasionally inspiring some discussion in the other groups. In any case, I am glad you liked what you found! please join the mailing list for jhc if you are interested in its development or using it.         John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/

you declared 'T Op [Tree]' so you should give 'T AND [L 1, L 2]' as the tree, right? Hi, Felipe. You are right. This means that I gave the correct input to the program. As you can see, I typed 'T AND [L 1, L 2]'. Therefore, JHC was expected to parse and print it. However, it failed to parse it. The program works perfectly well in GHC. Here is the GHC output:

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ghc tree.hs --make [1 of 1] Compiling Main             ( tree.hs, tree.o ) Linking tree ... philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./tree Give me a tree: T AND [L 1, L 2] T AND [L 1,L 2]

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, Felipe Lessa wrote: From: Felipe Lessa Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Problem with JHC To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org Received: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 6:23 AM On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 04:32:05AM -0800, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

data Op = AND | OR | NOT deriving (Show, Read) data Tree= L Int | T Op [Tree] deriving (Show, Read) 

Hmm, you see,

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtree Give me a tree: T AND (L 1, L 2)

jtree_code.c:2670: case fell off Aborted

you declared 'T Op [Tree]' so you should give 'T AND [L 1, L 2]' as the tree, right? -- Felipe. _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/

FWIW, I just compiled JHC 0.7.2 with ghc 6.12 , doing a couple of corrections to make it compile, which I don't think they are related to this *bug*. Testing the given code, it aborts for every inputs I give it "L 1", " T AND [L 1,L 2]" included. I couldn't make it compile using function "reads" instead. paolino 2009/11/11 Ross Mellgren

According to the paste you gave for the JHC test run:

Here is what happens when I try to run it:

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtree Give me a tree: T AND (L 1, L 2)

jtree_code.c:2670: case fell off Aborted

You gave it parens not square brackets.

-Ross

On Nov 11, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

...

you declared 'T Op [Tree]' so you should give 'T AND [L 1, L 2]' as the tree, right? Hi, Felipe. You are right. This means that I gave the correct input to the program. As you can see, I typed 'T AND [L 1, L 2]'. Therefore, JHC was expected to parse and print it. However, it failed to parse it. The program works perfectly well in GHC. Here is the GHC output:

...

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ghc tree.hs --make [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( tree.hs, tree.o ) Linking tree ... philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./tree Give me a tree: T AND [L 1, L 2] T AND [L 1,L 2]

--- On *Wed, 11/11/09, Felipe Lessa * wrote:

From: Felipe Lessa Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Problem with JHC To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org Received: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 6:23 AM

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 04:32:05AM -0800, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

...

data Op = AND | OR | NOT deriving (Show, Read) data Tree= L Int | T Op [Tree] deriving (Show, Read)

Hmm, you see,

...

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtree Give me a tree: T AND (L 1, L 2)

jtree_code.c:2670: case fell off Aborted

you declared 'T Op [Tree]' so you should give 'T AND [L 1, L 2]' as the tree, right?

-- Felipe. _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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Hi, Ross. Ops, the paste is wrong, but the bug is real. I mean, if I try to run the program with the right input, the program aborts in the same place, with the same error message: philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtestarbo Give me a tree: T AND [L 1, L 2] jtestarbo_code.c:2670: case fell off Abortado In fact, it aborts in the same place for any input. This fact may help to discover where the trouble is: philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtestarbo Give me a tree: fdsfkldkl jtestarbo_code.c:2670: case fell off Abortado --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Ross Mellgren wrote: From: Ross Mellgren Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Problem with JHC To: "Philippos Apolinarius" Cc: "Felipe Lessa" , haskell-cafe@haskell.org Received: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:52 AM According to the paste you gave for the JHC test run: Here is what happens when I try to run it: philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtree Give me a tree: T AND (L 1, L 2) jtree_code.c:2670: case fell off Aborted You gave it parens not square brackets. -Ross On Nov 11, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

you declared 'T Op [Tree]' so you should give 'T AND [L 1, L 2]' as the tree, right? Hi, Felipe. You are right. This means that I gave the correct input to the program. As you can see, I typed 'T AND [L 1, L 2]'. Therefore, JHC was expected to parse and print it. However, it failed to parse it. The program works perfectly well in GHC. Here is the GHC output:

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ghc tree.hs --make [1 of 1] Compiling Main             ( tree.hs, tree.o ) Linking tree ... philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./tree Give me a tree: T AND [L 1, L 2] T AND [L 1,L 2]

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, Felipe Lessa wrote: From: Felipe Lessa Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Problem with JHC To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org Received: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 6:23 AM On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 04:32:05AM -0800, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

data Op = AND | OR | NOT deriving (Show, Read) data Tree= L Int | T Op [Tree] deriving (Show, Read) 

Hmm, you see,

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtree Give me a tree: T AND (L 1, L 2)

jtree_code.c:2670: case fell off Aborted

you declared 'T Op [Tree]' so you should give 'T AND [L 1, L 2]' as the tree, right? -- Felipe. _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe Get the name you've always wanted ! @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com._______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.

Am Mittwoch 11 November 2009 23:50:21 schrieb Thomas DuBuisson:

Like paolino, I did a couple tests and found:

So the read for that does not work... but surprisingly...

...

data TreeX = Leaf Int | NotLeaf deriving (Show, Read)

Dropping the Int from the second constructor works (ignore the constructor names, they are just place-holders).

--- OTHER TESTS --- 1) data TreeX = Leaf | NotLeaf 5 deriving (Show, Read) Another unfortunate bug is that reversing the constructors (having Leaf as a nullary constructor and NotLeaf taking an Int) causes compilation to fail (using jhc-0.7.2-0).

2) data TreeX = Leaf Int | NotLeaf Int | OoopsLeaf deriving (Show, Read)

Works fine - notice it ends with a nullary constructor... Hypothesis 1: All working Read derivations have data declarations with a nullary constructor at the end.

Must be something like that, it also dies badly reading Either (but reading integers works): module Main where a, n :: Either Int Char a = Right 'a' n = Left 4 sa = "Right 'a'" sn = "Left 4" main :: IO () main = do putStrLn "Showing:" print (sa == show a) print (sn == show n) putStrLn "Reading:" print (read "123" :: Integer) print (a == read sa) print (n == read sn) results in $ ./veither Showing: True True Reading: 123 veither_code.c:3642: case fell off $ jhc --version jhc 0.7.2 (0.7.2-0) compiled by ghc-6.10 on a i386 running linux

Cheers, Thomas

I will wait for your fixing the problem. I am sure that JHC will work flawlessly sooner or later, and I intend to use it in my projects. --- On Fri, 11/13/09, John Meacham wrote: From: John Meacham Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Problem with JHC To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org Received: Friday, November 13, 2009, 4:04 AM On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 01:26:03PM -0800, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

Ops, the paste is wrong, but the bug is real. I mean, if I try to run the program with the right input, the program aborts in the same place, with the same error message:

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtestarbo

Give me a tree:

T AND [L 1, L 2]

jtestarbo_code.c:2670: case fell off

Hmm... yes, a 'case fell off' error is always a bug in jhc one way or another. I will have to investigate your program and find out why that is happening. compiling with -fdebug can help find such errors, but clearly there is something wrong.         John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 01:47:43PM -0500, Lennart Augustsson wrote:

Do you use jhc when you develop jhc? I.e., does it compile itself. For me, this is the litmus test of when a compiler has become usable. I mean, if even the developers of a compiler don't use it themselves, why should anyone else? :)

Well, this touches on another issue, and that is that jhc is a native cross-compiler. It never behaves differently if compiled by another haskell compiler or is compiled on an alternate platform. There is never a need to 'bootstrap' it, once you have jhc running anywhere then it is as good as it would be if it is running everywhere. So to me, self-hosting has never been a big issue as it doesn't provide any direct "material" benefit. My time is better spent implementing more extensions or improving the back end. Of course, if jhc were to have a back-end that ghc didn't support that was a useful platform for jhc to run on, then it would be a different story. There would be a direct material benefit to having jhc being self-hosting so it would become a priority. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/

Thanks Neil, That was indeed my point. Since a compiler is a substantial program I would have more confidence it a compiler that is self-hosting. Surely you must have tried? -- Lennart On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Neil Mitchell wrote:

Hi John,

...

...

Do you use jhc when you develop jhc?  I.e., does it compile itself. For me, this is the litmus test of when a compiler has become usable. I mean, if even the developers of a compiler don't use it themselves, why should anyone else? :)

Well, this touches on another issue, and that is that jhc is a native cross-compiler. It never behaves differently if compiled by another haskell compiler or is compiled on an alternate platform. There is never a need to 'bootstrap' it, once you have jhc running anywhere then it is as good as it would be if it is running everywhere. So to me, self-hosting has never been a big issue as it doesn't provide any direct "material" benefit. My time is better spent implementing more extensions or improving the back end.

I think you might have missed Lennart's point. It's fair to say you do a lot of Haskell development work while writing a Haskell compiler. If you aren't using your compiler for your development work (in particular for your compiler) then anyone trying to use it is likely to bump in to problems. It's not that there are technical advantages of self-compilation, but it is a good statement of faith from the compiler author.

Anyway, I think the Haskell community needs more compilers, so I wish you lots of luck with JHC!

Thanks, Neil _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, John Meacham wrote:

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 08:55:51PM +0000, Lennart Augustsson wrote:

...

That was indeed my point. Since a compiler is a substantial program I would have more confidence it a compiler that is self-hosting. Surely you must have tried?

No, there are extensions that I use in jhc's code base that jhc itself does not support yet (fundeps for instance).

Maybe you can skip fundeps and move to Type families immediately.

Although said extensions would be nice and are on the list of things to add to jhc, there are other tasks that are more important. I write a lot of code in Haskell, so getting jhc to compile in jhc isn't much more important than getting any of the other projects I work on to compile in it and I prioritize accordingly. I am all about variety in the tools I use. I never understood the desire to have it be self-hosting, I mean, sure it is a nice abstract goal, but there are things with concrete benefits that are more important to jhc right now. (of course, priorities change over time.)

A JHC compiled JHC might be faster and noticeably smaller? My current jhc executable is 15 MB.

Quoth Lennart Augustsson ,

Do you use jhc when you develop jhc? I.e., does it compile itself. For me, this is the litmus test of when a compiler has become usable. I mean, if even the developers of a compiler don't use it themselves, why should anyone else? :)

Though that's exactly backwards for minority platforms, where the compilers that compile themselves tend to be no use whatever. Donn Cave, donn@avvanta.com

Quoth Lennart Augustsson ,

If by minority platform you mean platforms that are resource starved, like some embedded systems, then I would have to agree.

Like anything but the platform the compiler developer(s) use. If you used a platform like that, you would certainly have to agree. If you were a compiler developer for a language that supports like-platform porting the way GHC does, after trying to keep that working while developing the language I suspect you might also be tempted to agree. Donn Cave, donn@avvanta.com

Hi, I believe this bug has been fixed in the darcs version, at least, it is in my testing. The fix will be in 0.7.3, or you can try the version from the darcs repository directly. Thanks for the bug report! John On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 01:36:05PM -0800, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

Hi, John. I am sending you this second email because the first one has a worng paste.  However, if I use the right input, I gent the same error. In fact, it gives exactly the same error for any input, right or wrong. 

{- file: tree.hs -} {- compile: jhc tree.hs -dc -o jtree } import System (getArgs)

import System.IO

import IO

  data Op = AND | OR | NOT deriving (Show, Read)

   

data Tree= L Int | T Op [Tree] deriving (Show, Read) 

  main= do

  putStrLn "Give me a tree:"

  s <- getLine   let xx= read s   putStrLn (show (xx::Tree))    

Here is what happens when I try to run it:

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtree Give me a tree: T AND [L 1, L 2]

jtree_code.c:2670: case fell off Aborted

It gives the same error for any input:

philip@desktop:~/jhctut$ ./jtestarbo Give me a tree: fdsfkldkl

jtestarbo_code.c:2670: case fell off Abortado

It seems that the problem is in the Read class, since it works if I use the Show class only:

import System (getArgs)

import System.IO

import IO

  data Op = AND | OR | NOT deriving (Show, Read)

   

data Tree= L Int | T Op [Tree] deriving (Show, Read) 

  main= do

  putStrLn "Give me a tree:"

  s <- getLine   let xx= T AND [L 1, L 2]   putStrLn (show (xx::Tree))

I hope you can fix it.

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Meacham wrote:

From: John Meacham Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Opinion about JHC To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org Received: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 1:37 AM

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 07:41:54PM -0800, Philippos Apolinarius wrote:

...

I discovered a Haskell compiler that generates very small and fast code. In fact, it beats Clean. It has the following properties:

Excellent. that was my goal ;)

...

1 --- One can cross-compile programs easily. For instance, here is how I generated code for Windows:

jhc --cross -mwin32 genetic.hs -o genetic

Yup. This was a major goal. compiling for iPhones and embedded arches is just as easy assuming you have a gcc toolchain set up. (at least with the hacked iPhone SDK.. I have never tried it with the official one)

...

2 -- It seems to be quite complete.

3 -- However, it often compiles a file, but the program fails to run.

I have the following questions about it:

1 -- How active is the team who is writing the JHC compiler?

Hi, I am the main contributor, but others are welcome and several have made signifigant contributions. Development tends to be spurty. A lot of work will get done in a short amount of time, this generally corresponds to when an external contributor gets involved and the back and forth helps stimulate patches on my part to complement theirs.

Although I have not been able to devote a lot of my time to jhc in the past, hopefully this will change in the not to distant future and I will be able to work on it full time.

...

2 -- Is it complete Haskell? The author claims that it is; it compiled all programs that I wrote, but that does not mean much, because my programs are quite simple.

It does Haskell 98 and several extensions, which is pretty much what GHC does. However, it does not implement the same set of extensions as GHC so this causes issues as a lot of people use GHC extensions extensively.

I plan on supporting all of Haskell' of course, and the popular GHC extensions to help compatibility. Not all are implemented.

...

3 -- Why the Haskell community almost never talks about JHC?

Part of it is that I am not very good at advocacy. I don't always post announcements on the main haskell lists figuring the interested parties are on the jhc list already. I do try to make jhc good, fast, and usable, I always hoped someone better at advocacy than me would join the project :) In truth, I think the spurty nature of development also affects this, the list will be quite for a long time with a flurry of development lasting a few weeks occasionally inspiring some discussion in the other groups.

In any case, I am glad you liked what you found! please join the mailing list for jhc if you are interested in its development or using it.

        John

-- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ -- Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

__________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/

This worked for me, though that was quite a while ago. Presumably it still works. I don't remember doing any magic, just using the Maemo cross-compiler to build the output of jhc. The only annoying part was having to build with jhc outside the scratchbox environment and then build the C output inside the scratchbox. This is necessary because jhc is not self-hosting and I couldn't get GHC to build for Maemo. The attempts to build GHC (back in the 6.8.2 days -- supposed cross-platform bootstrapping works again in 6.12, maybe it'll work now) and the success with JHC are documented at [1]. Actually, I just looked and Dustin Weese succeeded where I had failed, and got an unregisterized 6.8 to bootstrap to Maemo. I've since learned ARM(v4) assembly for an embedded systems course, I might look into writing a properly registerized ARM back-end for GHC 6.12, now that the back-end overhaul is complete. That's definitely a Copious Free Time project, since I don't intend to be doing any ARM dev in Haskell or otherwise. Braden Shepherdson shepheb [1] http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/ArmLinuxGhc Gour wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:37:59 -0800

...

...

...

...

...

> "John" == John Meacham wrote:

Hi John,

John> Yup. This was a major goal. compiling for iPhones and embedded John> arches is just as easy assuming you have a gcc toolchain set up. John> (at least with the hacked iPhone SDK.. I have never tried it with John> the official one)

Is there any info whether it works on maemo platform?

Sincerely, Gour

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:44:22PM -0500, Braden Shepherdson wrote:

The only annoying part was having to build with jhc outside the scratchbox environment and then build the C output inside the scratchbox. This is necessary because jhc is not self-hosting and I couldn't get GHC to build for Maemo.

Would you really want to have to run jhc _on_ your nokia 770 (or whatever) just to compile Haskell programs for it? The need for self-hosting in other compilers has always seemed like a deficiency in their design, a compiler is just a pure function from source code to output for a specified architecture. Said function is pure, it should not depend on what platform the compiler happens to be running on any more than any other pure function. Not that having jhc run on the nokia would be a bad thing, but it should not be required or provide any particular advantage for compiling programs for the nokia. jhc running on your N800 should be able to compile windows programs just as easily as jhc running on a windows machine itself or a linux box or a mac box. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 03:19:22 -0800

...

...

...

...

...

"John" == John Meacham wrote:

John> Would you really want to have to run jhc _on_ your nokia 770 (or John> whatever) just to compile Haskell programs for it? No. I'd be satisfied with the ability to develop in Haskell for Maemo/Moblin and run apps on those platforms. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 ----------------------------------------------------------------