I'm not sure what you mean. If you want to write a profunctor traversal then `wander lq5Twan` seems fine. If you want to understand why it's hard to directly write profunctor traversals then I'm afraid I'm as puzzled as you. On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 06:29:09PM +0200, Paolino wrote:

Well, I can accept it as an evidence of why not to use the profunctor encoding for multi target lens (if that's the name). But I guess we are already in philosophy (so I'm more puzzled than before) and I hope you can elaborate more.

.p

2018-05-02 18:10 GMT+02:00 Tom Ellis < tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk>:

...

On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 03:07:05PM +0200, Paolino wrote:

...

I'm trying to write a lens for a datatype which seems easy in the Twan van Laarhoven encoding but I cannot find it as easy in the profunctorial one

data Q5 a b = Q51 a (Identity b) | Q52 [b]

lq5Twan :: Applicative f => (b -> f b') -> Q5 a b -> f (Q5 a b') lq5Twan f (Q51 a bs) = Q51 a <$> traverse f bs lq5Twan f (Q52 bs) = Q52 <$> traverse f bs [...] lq5Profunctor :: forall p a b b' . Traversing p => p b b' -> p (Q5 a b) (Q5 a b') [...] Which simpler ways to write the lq5Profunctor we have ?

Is `wander lq5Twan` good enough, or is your question more philosophical?

Here's a little gist I wrote. See https://gist.github.com/phadej/04aae6cb98840ef9eeb592b76e6f3a67 for syntax highlighted versions. Hopefully it gives you some insights! \begin{code} {-# LANGUAGE RankNTypes, DeriveFunctor, DeriveFoldable, DeriveTraversable, TupleSections #-} import Data.Functor.Identity import Data.Profunctor import Data.Profunctor.Traversing import Data.Traversable import Data.Tuple (swap) data Q5 a b = Q51 a (Identity b) | Q52 [b] lq5Twan :: Applicative f => (b -> f b') -> Q5 a b -> f (Q5 a b') lq5Twan f (Q51 a bs) = Q51 a <$> traverse f bs lq5Twan f (Q52 bs) = Q52 <$> traverse f bs data BT tt tt' b t t' a = BT1 (tt -> b) (t a) | BT2 (tt' -> b) (t' a) deriving (Functor,Foldable,Traversable) runBT (BT1 f x) = f x runBT (BT2 f x) = f x lq5Profunctor :: forall p a b b' . Traversing p => p b b' -> p (Q5 a b) (Q5 a b') lq5Profunctor = dimap pre post . second' . traverse' where   pre (Q51 a x) = ((), BT1 (Q51 a) x)   pre (Q52 bs) = ((), BT2 Q52 bs)   post ((),x) = runBT x \end{code} \begin{code} instance Functor (Q5 a) where fmap = fmapDefault instance Foldable (Q5 a) where foldMap = foldMapDefault instance Traversable (Q5 a) where     traverse f (Q51 a bs) = Q51 a <$> traverse f bs     traverse f (Q52 bs) = Q52 <$> traverse f bs lq5Twan' :: Applicative f => (b -> f b') -> Q5 a b -> f (Q5 a b') lq5Twan' = traverse lq5Profunctor' :: forall p a b b' . Traversing p => p b b' -> p (Q5 a b) (Q5 a b') lq5Profunctor' = traverse' \end{code} And in general: three steps: 1. create a Traversable newtype over your type 2. dimap pre post . traverse' 3. Profit! Compare that to writing Lens 1. bijection your 's' to (a, r) (Note: 'r' can be 's'!) 2. dimap to from . first' 3. Profit! Trivial examples: \begin{code} type Lens s t a b = forall p. Strong p => p a b -> p s t _1 :: Lens (a, c) (b, c) a b _1 = dimap id id . first' _2 :: Lens (c, a) (c, b) a b _2 = dimap swap swap . first' \end{code} Note again, that in usual `lens` definition we pick r to be s: we "carry over" the whole "s", though "s - a = r" would be enough. But in practice constructing "residual" is expensive. Think about record with 10 fields: residual in a single field lens would be 9-tuple - not really worth it. Interlude, one can define Traversal over first argument too. Using Bitraversable class that would be direct. In this case it's Affine (Traversal), so we can do "better" than using `traverse'`. \begin{code} lq5ProFirst :: forall p a a' b. (Choice p, Strong p) => p a a' -> p (Q5 a b) (Q5 a' b) lq5ProFirst = dimap f g . right' . first' where     -- Think why we have chosen [b] + a * b     -- compare to definition of Q5!     --     -- The r + r' * s shape justifies the name Affine, btw.     f :: Q5 a b -> Either [b] (a, Identity b)     f (Q51 a x) = Right (a, x)     f (Q52 bs)  = Left bs     g (Left bs) = Q52 bs     g (Right (a, x)) = Q51 a x \end{code} Note: how the same 1. bijection to some structure (`r' + r * a` in this case 2. dimap to from . ... 3. Profit pattern is applied again. Another way to think about it is that we 1. Use `Iso` (for all Profunctor!) to massage value into the form, so 2. we can use "Optic specific" transform 3. Profit! And optic specific: - Lens -> Products - Prism -> Coproducts (Sums) - Traversal -> Traversable - Setter -> Functor (Mapping type class has map' :: Functor f => p a b -> p (f a) (f b)) - etc. So the fact that defining arbitrary Traversals directly is more handy with `wander`, than `traverse'` (as you can omit `dimap`!) is more related to the fact that we have \begin{spec} class Traversable t where     traverse :: Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) \end{spec} ... and we (well, me) don't yet know another elegant way to capture "the essense of Traversable". (I don't think FunList is particularly "elegant") Sidenote: we can define Lens using Traversing/Mapping -like class too, hopefully it gives you another viewpoint too. \begin{code} class Functor t => Singular t where     single :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) fmapSingle :: Singular t => (a -> b) -> t a -> t b fmapSingle ab ta = runIdentity (single (Identity . ab) ta) instance Singular Identity where     single f (Identity a) = Identity <$> f a instance Singular ((,) a) where     single f (a, b) = (a,) <$> f b class Profunctor p => Strong' p where     single' :: Singular f => p a b -> p (f a) (f b) instance Strong' (->) where     single' ab = fmap ab instance Functor f => Strong' (Star f) where     single' (Star afb) = Star (single afb) -- lens using Strong' & Single: 1. 2. 3. lens' :: Strong' p => (s -> a) -> (s -> b -> t) -> p a b -> p s t lens' sa sbt = dimap (\s -> (s, sa s)) (\(s,b) -> sbt s b) . single' \end{code} Cheers, Oleg On 02.05.2018 20:09, Paolino wrote:

I'm not using any lens libraries, I'm writing both encodings from scratch based on standard libs, as a learning path. I see anyway that Traversing class is declaring exactly the Twan -> Profunctor promotion (given the Applicative on f)  which looks a lot  like a white flag on the "write traversal as profunctor" research. Actually I was induced from purescript to think that the profunctorial encoding was completely alternative to the twan, but I had no evidence of the fact, so I should better dig into purescript library.

.p

2018-05-02 18:43 GMT+02:00 Tom Ellis mailto:tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk>:

I'm not sure what you mean.  If you want to write a profunctor traversal then `wander lq5Twan` seems fine.  If you want to understand why it's hard to directly write profunctor traversals then I'm afraid I'm as puzzled as you.

On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 06:29:09PM +0200, Paolino wrote: > Well, I can accept it as an evidence of why  not to use the profunctor > encoding for multi target lens (if that's the name). > But I guess we are already in philosophy (so I'm more puzzled than before) > and I hope you can elaborate more. > > .p > > > 2018-05-02 18:10 GMT+02:00 Tom Ellis < > tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk mailto:tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk>: > > > On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 03:07:05PM +0200, Paolino wrote: > > > I'm trying to write a lens for a datatype which seems easy in the Twan > > van > > > Laarhoven encoding but I cannot find it as easy in the profunctorial one > > > > > > data Q5 a b = Q51 a (Identity b) | Q52 [b] > > > > > > lq5Twan :: Applicative f => (b -> f b') -> Q5 a b -> f (Q5 a b') > > > lq5Twan f (Q51 a bs) = Q51 a <$> traverse f bs > > > lq5Twan f (Q52 bs) = Q52 <$> traverse f bs > > [...] > > > lq5Profunctor :: forall p a b b' . Traversing p => p b b' -> p (Q5 a > > > b) (Q5 a b') > > [...] > > > Which simpler ways to write the lq5Profunctor we have ? > > > > Is `wander lq5Twan` good enough, or is your question more philosophical?

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Hi Paolino, sorry for not replying promptly. Your type Q6 is Bitraversable which is in already in the base library (actually Triversable, if there were such class), should GHC be able to derive it? What else GHC should be able to derive? To my understanding (unfortunately I forgot the details), is that we'd would like to be able to teach GHC to derive instances from libraries, so we don't end up wiring special code for all instances out there. Also we'd might want different strategies for some type-classes (Bi/Traversable instances are unique, so that concern doesn't apply here). There's a GHC ticket for it [1], there are technical difficulties to overcome (and there is TH, more below), so there weren't much progress. That said, for Bitraversable, you could use `Data.Bifunctor.TH` [2], then you can use `bitraverse f pure` (sans wrapping/unwrapping) for Q6 to implement `traverse f` of Q6b. - Oleg [1]: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/12457 [2]: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.5.2/docs/Data-Bifunctor-TH.h... On 03.05.2018 15:54, Paolino wrote:

Hi Oleg,

How easy should it be to "create a Traversable newtype over your type" ?

data Q6 a b c = Q61 a (Identity b) | Q62 [b] | Q63 c

newtype Q6b a c b = Q61b (Q6 a b c)

I cannot automatically derive anything for Q6b (Functor, Foldable, Traversable).  So we are back to hand writing lenses for Q6, or I miss something ?

For the rest, it was a very nice followup, I'm still rereading. 

Thanks

Best

.p

2018-05-02 23:06 GMT+02:00 Oleg Grenrus mailto:oleg.grenrus@iki.fi>:

Here's a little gist I wrote.

See https://gist.github.com/phadej/04aae6cb98840ef9eeb592b76e6f3a67 https://gist.github.com/phadej/04aae6cb98840ef9eeb592b76e6f3a67 for syntax highlighted versions.

Hopefully it gives you some insights!

\begin{code} {-# LANGUAGE RankNTypes, DeriveFunctor, DeriveFoldable, DeriveTraversable, TupleSections #-} import Data.Functor.Identity import Data.Profunctor import Data.Profunctor.Traversing import Data.Traversable import Data.Tuple (swap)

data Q5 a b = Q51 a (Identity b) | Q52 [b]

lq5Twan :: Applicative f => (b -> f b') -> Q5 a b -> f (Q5 a b') lq5Twan f (Q51 a bs) = Q51 a <$> traverse f bs lq5Twan f (Q52 bs) = Q52 <$> traverse f bs

data BT tt tt' b t t' a = BT1 (tt -> b) (t a) | BT2 (tt' -> b) (t' a) deriving (Functor,Foldable,Traversable) runBT (BT1 f x) = f x runBT (BT2 f x) = f x

lq5Profunctor :: forall p a b b' . Traversing p => p b b' -> p (Q5 a b) (Q5 a b') lq5Profunctor = dimap pre post . second' . traverse' where   pre (Q51 a x) = ((), BT1 (Q51 a) x)   pre (Q52 bs) = ((), BT2 Q52 bs)   post ((),x) = runBT x \end{code}

\begin{code} instance Functor (Q5 a) where fmap = fmapDefault instance Foldable (Q5 a) where foldMap = foldMapDefault instance Traversable (Q5 a) where     traverse f (Q51 a bs) = Q51 a <$> traverse f bs     traverse f (Q52 bs) = Q52 <$> traverse f bs

lq5Twan' :: Applicative f => (b -> f b') -> Q5 a b -> f (Q5 a b') lq5Twan' = traverse

lq5Profunctor' :: forall p a b b' . Traversing p => p b b' -> p (Q5 a b) (Q5 a b') lq5Profunctor' = traverse' \end{code}

And in general: three steps:

1. create a Traversable newtype over your type 2. dimap pre post . traverse' 3. Profit!

Compare that to writing Lens

1. bijection your 's' to (a, r) (Note: 'r' can be 's'!) 2. dimap to from . first' 3. Profit!

Trivial examples:

\begin{code} type Lens s t a b = forall p. Strong p => p a b -> p s t

_1 :: Lens (a, c) (b, c) a b _1 = dimap id id . first'

_2 :: Lens (c, a) (c, b) a b _2 = dimap swap swap . first' \end{code}

Note again, that in usual `lens` definition we pick r to be s: we "carry over" the whole "s", though "s - a = r" would be enough. But in practice constructing "residual" is expensive. Think about record with 10 fields: residual in a single field lens would be 9-tuple - not really worth it.

Interlude, one can define Traversal over first argument too. Using Bitraversable class that would be direct.

In this case it's Affine (Traversal), so we can do "better" than using `traverse'`.

\begin{code} lq5ProFirst :: forall p a a' b. (Choice p, Strong p) => p a a' -> p (Q5 a b) (Q5 a' b) lq5ProFirst = dimap f g . right' . first' where     -- Think why we have chosen [b] + a * b     -- compare to definition of Q5!     --     -- The r + r' * s shape justifies the name Affine, btw.     f :: Q5 a b -> Either [b] (a, Identity b)     f (Q51 a x) = Right (a, x)     f (Q52 bs)  = Left bs

    g (Left bs) = Q52 bs     g (Right (a, x)) = Q51 a x \end{code}

Note: how the same

1. bijection to some structure (`r' + r * a` in this case 2. dimap to from . ... 3. Profit

pattern is applied again.

Another way to think about it is that we

1. Use `Iso` (for all Profunctor!) to massage value into the form, so 2. we can use "Optic specific" transform 3. Profit!

And optic specific: - Lens -> Products - Prism -> Coproducts (Sums) - Traversal -> Traversable - Setter -> Functor (Mapping type class has map' :: Functor f => p a b -> p (f a) (f b)) - etc.

So the fact that defining arbitrary Traversals directly is more handy with `wander`, than `traverse'` (as you can omit `dimap`!) is more related to the fact that we have

\begin{spec} class Traversable t where     traverse :: Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) \end{spec}

... and we (well, me) don't yet know another elegant way to capture "the essense of Traversable". (I don't think FunList is particularly "elegant")

Sidenote: we can define Lens using Traversing/Mapping -like class too, hopefully it gives you another viewpoint too.

\begin{code} class Functor t => Singular t where     single :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)

fmapSingle :: Singular t => (a -> b) -> t a -> t b fmapSingle ab ta = runIdentity (single (Identity . ab) ta)

instance Singular Identity where     single f (Identity a) = Identity <$> f a

instance Singular ((,) a) where     single f (a, b) = (a,) <$> f b

class Profunctor p => Strong' p where     single' :: Singular f => p a b -> p (f a) (f b)

instance Strong' (->) where     single' ab = fmap ab

instance Functor f => Strong' (Star f) where     single' (Star afb) = Star (single afb)

-- lens using Strong' & Single: 1. 2. 3. lens' :: Strong' p => (s -> a) -> (s -> b -> t) -> p a b -> p s t lens' sa sbt = dimap (\s -> (s, sa s)) (\(s,b) -> sbt s b) . single' \end{code}

Cheers, Oleg

On 02.05.2018 20:09, Paolino wrote: > I'm not using any lens libraries, I'm writing both encodings from > scratch based on standard libs, as a learning path. > I see anyway that Traversing class is declaring exactly the Twan -> > Profunctor promotion (given the Applicative on f)  which looks a lot  > like a white flag on the "write traversal as profunctor" research. > Actually I was induced from purescript to think that the profunctorial > encoding was completely alternative to the twan, but I had no evidence > of the fact, so I should better dig into purescript library. > > .p > > 2018-05-02 18:43 GMT+02:00 Tom Ellis > mailto:tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk > mailto:tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk>>: > >     I'm not sure what you mean.  If you want to write a profunctor >     traversal >     then `wander lq5Twan` seems fine.  If you want to understand why >     it's hard >     to directly write profunctor traversals then I'm afraid I'm as >     puzzled as >     you. > >     On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 06:29:09PM +0200, Paolino wrote: >     > Well, I can accept it as an evidence of why  not to use the >     profunctor >     > encoding for multi target lens (if that's the name). >     > But I guess we are already in philosophy (so I'm more puzzled >     than before) >     > and I hope you can elaborate more. >     > >     > .p >     > >     > >     > 2018-05-02 18:10 GMT+02:00 Tom Ellis < >     > tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk mailto:tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk >     mailto:tom-lists-haskell-cafe-2013@jaguarpaw.co.uk>>: >     > >     > > On Wed, May 02, 2018 at 03:07:05PM +0200, Paolino wrote: >     > > > I'm trying to write a lens for a datatype which seems easy >     in the Twan >     > > van >     > > > Laarhoven encoding but I cannot find it as easy in the >     profunctorial one >     > > > >     > > > data Q5 a b = Q51 a (Identity b) | Q52 [b] >     > > > >     > > > lq5Twan :: Applicative f => (b -> f b') -> Q5 a b -> f (Q5 a b') >     > > > lq5Twan f (Q51 a bs) = Q51 a <$> traverse f bs >     > > > lq5Twan f (Q52 bs) = Q52 <$> traverse f bs >     > > [...] >     > > > lq5Profunctor :: forall p a b b' . Traversing p => p b b' -> >     p (Q5 a >     > > > b) (Q5 a b') >     > > [...] >     > > > Which simpler ways to write the lq5Profunctor we have ? >     > > >     > > Is `wander lq5Twan` good enough, or is your question more >     philosophical? > >     _______________________________________________ >     Haskell-Cafe mailing list >     To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to: >     http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe >     <http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe> >     Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Haskell-Cafe mailing list > To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to: > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe > Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.

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