Re: [Haskell-cafe] Leaner Haskell.org frontpage

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Don Stewart

9 Jul 2009 9 Jul '09

12:52 p.m.

ttencate:

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On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 18:33, Don Stewart wrote:

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ttencate:

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Are there any kind of hard statistics and analytics that we can base this discussion upon? There is always room for improvement, but stumbling around in the dark making blind guesses may not be the best way to go. Although I personally feel that Lenny's proposed page is an improvement, statistics could tell us what actual people actually use the site for.

Thanks Don, I should have thought of that. It's a start!

No matter what we decide, I'd like to advocate for maintaining the RSS feed of Hackage uploads on the front page -- this is what makes the page seem alive and active, and was introduced in response to John Hughes complaining the page was always out of date. (Similar to the Arch Linux package updates: http://www.archlinux.org/) -- Don

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Thomas ten Cate

9 Jul 9 Jul

1 p.m.

New subject: Leaner Haskell.org frontpage

By the way, the most valuable pixels, right at the top of the page, are wasted on wiki stuff. Compare http://www.haskell.org/ with, for example, http://www.ruby-lang.org/ http://python.org/ If, like the consensus seems to be, the page should be made more friendly to beginners (who are unlikely to want to contribute to the wiki right away), then this should be moved elsewhere, or at the very least made smaller and less obtrusive. Thomas

Jason Dagit

1:31 p.m.

New subject: Leaner Haskell.org frontpage

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Thomas ten Cate wrote:

...

By the way, the most valuable pixels, right at the top of the page, are wasted on wiki stuff. Compare http://www.haskell.org/ with, for example, http://www.ruby-lang.org/ http://python.org/

The thing I like the most from the ruby page is the top box of content where it starts describing ruby with a "Read more..." link adjacent to a code snippet. Because I doubt anyone will agree on *the one* best code snippet to show people, I think there should/could be a pool of fun snippets and loading the page picks one at random. I have no idea if the wiki engine supports this. I also like the strip of links at the top with things like, "Download", "Community", and so on. Something I think the Haskell page does much better than the other two, is the listing of events and hackage updates. Both of those sections feel "inviting" to me. It makes me curious and I want to explore. The python page looks at least as cluttered as the haskell page. Neither the haskell page or the python page have the same look and feel of the ruby page. I think the shaded/gradient backgrounds actually add a lot to the visual experience. I also like that the boxes have a different bg color for the box title and the box contents. I also like the use of icons on the ruby page. The "Download Ruby" link/box with the download icon is very inviting. I just want to download it, even if I'm not going to use ruby! Perhaps we could have a contest similar to the logo contest but for homepage asthetics redesign. I think the content on the haskell page is great, but the visual style of the presentation could be improved considerably.

...

If, like the consensus seems to be, the page should be made more friendly to beginners (who are unlikely to want to contribute to the wiki right away), then this should be moved elsewhere, or at the very least made smaller and less obtrusive.

Optimizing for newcomers seems wise. Jason

Derek Elkins

6:11 p.m.

New subject: Leaner Haskell.org frontpage

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jason Dagit wrote:

...

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Thomas ten Cate wrote:

...
By the way, the most valuable pixels, right at the top of the page, are wasted on wiki stuff. Compare http://www.haskell.org/ with, for example, http://www.ruby-lang.org/ http://python.org/

The thing I like the most from the ruby page is the top box of content where it starts describing ruby with a "Read more..." link adjacent to a code snippet. Because I doubt anyone will agree on *the one* best code snippet to show people, I think there should/could be a pool of fun snippets and loading the page picks one at random. I have no idea if the wiki engine supports this. I also like the strip of links at the top with things like, "Download", "Community", and so on. Something I think the Haskell page does much better than the other two, is the listing of events and hackage updates. Both of those sections feel "inviting" to me. It makes me curious and I want to explore.

The python page looks at least as cluttered as the haskell page. Neither the haskell page or the python page have the same look and feel of the ruby page. I think the shaded/gradient backgrounds actually add a lot to the visual experience. I also like that the boxes have a different bg color for the box title and the box contents. I also like the use of icons on the ruby page. The "Download Ruby" link/box with the download icon is very inviting. I just want to download it, even if I'm not going to use ruby!

Perhaps we could have a contest similar to the logo contest but for homepage asthetics redesign. I think the content on the haskell page is great, but the visual style of the presentation could be improved considerably.

...
If, like the consensus seems to be, the page should be made more friendly to beginners (who are unlikely to want to contribute to the wiki right away), then this should be moved elsewhere, or at the very least made smaller and less obtrusive.

Optimizing for newcomers seems wise. Jason

This is what I see when visiting the Ruby page: "DoS vulnerability in BigDecimal"

Jason Dagit

6:17 p.m.

New subject: Leaner Haskell.org frontpage

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Derek Elkins wrote:

...

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jason Dagit wrote:

...
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Thomas ten Cate

...
...
By the way, the most valuable pixels, right at the top of the page, are wasted on wiki stuff. Compare http://www.haskell.org/ with, for example, http://www.ruby-lang.org/ http://python.org/

The thing I like the most from the ruby page is the top box of content where it starts describing ruby with a "Read more..." link adjacent to a code snippet. Because I doubt anyone will agree on *the one* best code snippet to show people, I think there should/could be a pool of fun snippets and loading the page picks one at random. I have no idea if the wiki engine supports this. I also like the strip of links at the top with things

wrote: like,

...
"Download", "Community", and so on. Something I think the Haskell page does much better than the other two, is the listing of events and hackage updates. Both of those sections feel "inviting" to me. It makes me curious and I want to explore.

The python page looks at least as cluttered as the haskell page. Neither the haskell page or the python page have the same look and feel of the ruby page. I think the shaded/gradient backgrounds actually add a lot to the visual experience. I also like that the boxes have a different bg color for the box title and the box contents. I also like the use of icons on the ruby page. The "Download Ruby" link/box with the download icon is very inviting. I just want to download it, even if I'm not going to use ruby!

Perhaps we could have a contest similar to the logo contest but for homepage asthetics redesign. I think the content on the haskell page is great, but the visual style of the presentation could be improved considerably.

...
If, like the consensus seems to be, the page should be made more friendly to beginners (who are unlikely to want to contribute to the wiki right away), then this should be moved elsewhere, or at the very least made smaller and less obtrusive.

Optimizing for newcomers seems wise. Jason

This is what I see when visiting the Ruby page: "DoS vulnerability in BigDecimal"

That's true. And I never said we want to copy the ruby community :) In fact, I'd prefer to not be associated with them given the community's blatant unprofessionalism and sexism (cf. CouchDB presentation at a semi-recent ruby conference). I do think their page has more visual appeal though. So other than pointing out the DoS, did you have feedback? Thanks, Jason

Derek Elkins

7:12 p.m.

New subject: Leaner Haskell.org frontpage

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Jason Dagit wrote:

...

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Derek Elkins wrote:

...
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jason Dagit wrote:

...
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Thomas ten Cate wrote:

...
By the way, the most valuable pixels, right at the top of the page, are wasted on wiki stuff. Compare http://www.haskell.org/ with, for example, http://www.ruby-lang.org/ http://python.org/

The thing I like the most from the ruby page is the top box of content where it starts describing ruby with a "Read more..." link adjacent to a code snippet. Because I doubt anyone will agree on *the one* best code snippet to show people, I think there should/could be a pool of fun snippets and loading the page picks one at random. I have no idea if the wiki engine supports this. I also like the strip of links at the top with things like, "Download", "Community", and so on. Something I think the Haskell page does much better than the other two, is the listing of events and hackage updates. Both of those sections feel "inviting" to me. It makes me curious and I want to explore.

The python page looks at least as cluttered as the haskell page. Neither the haskell page or the python page have the same look and feel of the ruby page. I think the shaded/gradient backgrounds actually add a lot to the visual experience. I also like that the boxes have a different bg color for the box title and the box contents. I also like the use of icons on the ruby page. The "Download Ruby" link/box with the download icon is very inviting. I just want to download it, even if I'm not going to use ruby!

Perhaps we could have a contest similar to the logo contest but for homepage asthetics redesign. I think the content on the haskell page is great, but the visual style of the presentation could be improved considerably.

...
If, like the consensus seems to be, the page should be made more friendly to beginners (who are unlikely to want to contribute to the wiki right away), then this should be moved elsewhere, or at the very least made smaller and less obtrusive.

Optimizing for newcomers seems wise. Jason

This is what I see when visiting the Ruby page: "DoS vulnerability in BigDecimal"

That's true. And I never said we want to copy the ruby community :) In fact, I'd prefer to not be associated with them given the community's blatant unprofessionalism and sexism (cf. CouchDB presentation at a semi-recent ruby conference). I do think their page has more visual appeal though. So other than pointing out the DoS, did you have feedback?

I admit it; you caught me. I'm not a newbie and I don't use the front page terribly often, but I do like most of the links that are on it. The Ruby page is certainly prettier, but the layout of the Haskell page is fine in my opinion; the difference is mainly eye-candy. On another topic, I know people have expressed that they have liked the fact that the entire Haskell site is a wiki; this expressing openness and community involvement. I personally don't find the Haskell front page too cluttered and I think most of issue in that vein could be resolved by simply making sure the most important/newbie-oriented links are "above the fold" and appropriately emphasized/categorized as is partially done already.

Rick R

6:17 p.m.

New subject: Leaner Haskell.org frontpage

IMO, causing a segfault in the interpreter is more than just a DOS vulnerability :) On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Derek Elkins wrote:

...

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jason Dagit wrote:

...
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Thomas ten Cate

...
...
By the way, the most valuable pixels, right at the top of the page, are wasted on wiki stuff. Compare http://www.haskell.org/ with, for example, http://www.ruby-lang.org/ http://python.org/

The thing I like the most from the ruby page is the top box of content where it starts describing ruby with a "Read more..." link adjacent to a code snippet. Because I doubt anyone will agree on *the one* best code snippet to show people, I think there should/could be a pool of fun snippets and loading the page picks one at random. I have no idea if the wiki engine supports this. I also like the strip of links at the top with things

wrote: like,

...
"Download", "Community", and so on. Something I think the Haskell page does much better than the other two, is the listing of events and hackage updates. Both of those sections feel "inviting" to me. It makes me curious and I want to explore.

The python page looks at least as cluttered as the haskell page. Neither the haskell page or the python page have the same look and feel of the ruby page. I think the shaded/gradient backgrounds actually add a lot to the visual experience. I also like that the boxes have a different bg color for the box title and the box contents. I also like the use of icons on the ruby page. The "Download Ruby" link/box with the download icon is very inviting. I just want to download it, even if I'm not going to use ruby!

Perhaps we could have a contest similar to the logo contest but for homepage asthetics redesign. I think the content on the haskell page is great, but the visual style of the presentation could be improved considerably.

...
If, like the consensus seems to be, the page should be made more friendly to beginners (who are unlikely to want to contribute to the wiki right away), then this should be moved elsewhere, or at the very least made smaller and less obtrusive.

Optimizing for newcomers seems wise. Jason

This is what I see when visiting the Ruby page: "DoS vulnerability in BigDecimal" _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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Marc Weber

10 Jul 10 Jul

3:51 p.m.

New subject: haskell.org: what can be improved causing what efforts?

(I wrote this two days ago.. unfortunately I missed that my new client didnt't sent it at all) Not wasting so much space on top for wiki space +1 competition to get a new design: +1, but is it feasable? Is there enough man power to implement it? Moving wiki content again? This is much more work than just embedding a new logo. code snippet: no hello world please. That's not a way to judge a language! But: a random haskell one line snippet with explanation would be cool. If a redesign causes too much work what about adding one eye catcher which everyone who wants to learn haskell will find immediately but won't disturb users who are used to the current design? Eg adding "start learning / tutorial" above "Download Haskell" would be enough. On that page you can tell the new user about everything (irc, mailinglists, ...) Another nice thing which could be done is adding a JS snippet scrolling down some pixpels so that the wiki header gets hidden. My comments about the design focusing on newcomers still preseving current content: current design: | TOP | | left side right side | ================================================================ | LEFT BAR | | | | CONTENT | If you're not used to this kind of "white is important" design you end up reading these words: left side Haskell: great, but nonsense because you are already on this page. Do you ever click on that link? I mean removing part of the url is nearly as fast but less intrusive Wiki community: great. but missplaced. I'd move this link nearby "Download Haskell" ... "Search" on the left Recent changes: (*) Random page: (*) Special pages: (*) [ search ] [Go] [Search]: Why two buttons? What is the difference? eg even netbeans has only one ctrl-i search field for all: types, help, open windowsn right side: Not logged in, _Log in | Help ... "Note: new account creation has been disabled as an anti-spam measure." (*) (*): No newcomer will care about these items. LEFT BAR (navigation) Search: ? A third way to do a search? Search haskell.org: a fourth way to do a search? History of Haskell: Who cares? I'm a new and I want to see wether it's worth learning haskell. I only care about the future! So this item should be below "Future of Haskell" "Learning" is most important. Where to get started ? Don't ask. Just click and start.. So I'd move those items that it looks like this (removing those two searches!) implementations: GHC, hugs, nhc98, UHC, Yhc, jhc, lhc learning: Why use haskell ? Haskell in 5 steps Learning Haskell Books and tutorials Wiki articles Blog articles and news Videos Wikibook Research papers the language: Language definition future history libraries (the user who is looking for libraries has started. he'll find this information because he'll look and pay attention) Standard libraries Hackage library database Applications and libraries Hoogle and Hayoo API search I'd reduce those 6 search only keeping two: SEARCH Site: [ ... ][wiki][go] img dice Code: [ ... ][go] [wiki] is a select allowing to choose a google search) Code: runs both: hayoo and hoogle search img dice = random page Comparison: How do other sites manage to put much content on one page? They only put enough and provide links. Some do even use DHTML. One example is xing ( a German business network ): http://www.buzinkay.net/blog-de/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/screenshot4.jpeg "Neue Mitglieder" = new users "Kontakte meiner Kontakte" = contacts of my contacts You only get a small list of items and can click on "more" Same applies to big companies such as www.gmx.de: They use DHTML and many tabs to hide information and only catch your eye by topics. Also note how the size of items changes (fish-eye like) when moving the cursor above the news items.. (below "Blickpunkt") Don't get me wrong. I don't want the haskell page to look like gmx.de.. But this kind of tab style could be nice: | Events | Headlines | Recent package updates | recent wiki changes | * item * item or Events a) b) c) [+] Headlines a) b) c) [+] Recent Package Updates a) b) c) [+] Do you see that you can make the user be aware of all three headlines without having to scroll? Overall haskell.org is a great resource! Let's the value of its contens, please. Marc Weber

Don Stewart

4:31 p.m.

New subject: haskell.org: what can be improved causing what efforts?

One issue no one has raised yet is how to integrate this with MediaWiki. First we'd need to upgrade our mediawiki instance (which means moving to a new server), and then we'd need a template for the front page with these design features. Someone want to step up to lead such an effort? -- Don marco-oweber:

...

(I wrote this two days ago.. unfortunately I missed that my new client didnt't sent it at all)

Not wasting so much space on top for wiki space +1

competition to get a new design: +1, but is it feasable? Is there enough man power to implement it? Moving wiki content again? This is much more work than just embedding a new logo.

code snippet: no hello world please. That's not a way to judge a language! But: a random haskell one line snippet with explanation would be cool.

If a redesign causes too much work what about adding one eye catcher which everyone who wants to learn haskell will find immediately but won't disturb users who are used to the current design? Eg adding "start learning / tutorial" above "Download Haskell" would be enough. On that page you can tell the new user about everything (irc, mailinglists, ...)

Another nice thing which could be done is adding a JS snippet scrolling down some pixpels so that the wiki header gets hidden.

Johan Tibell

5:19 p.m.

New subject: haskell.org: what can be improved causing what efforts?

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Marc Weber wrote:

...

(I wrote this two days ago.. unfortunately I missed that my new client didnt't sent it at all)

Not wasting so much space on top for wiki space +1

competition to get a new design: +1, but is it feasable? Is there enough man power to implement it? Moving wiki content again? This is much more work than just embedding a new logo.

code snippet: no hello world please. That's not a way to judge a language! But: a random haskell one line snippet with explanation would be cool.

If a redesign causes too much work what about adding one eye catcher which everyone who wants to learn haskell will find immediately but won't disturb users who are used to the current design? Eg adding "start learning / tutorial" above "Download Haskell" would be enough. On that page you can tell the new user about everything (irc, mailinglists, ...)

Could we get hold of (anonymized) logs for haskell.org and mine them for click pattern so we can be a bit more scientific about what things should be made more prominent in a new design? -- Johan

Matthias Görgens

13 Jul 13 Jul

6:43 a.m.

New subject: haskell.org: what can be improved causing what efforts?

...

code snippet: no hello world please. That's not a way to judge a language! But: a random haskell one line snippet with explanation would be cool.

Perhaps a solution to a problem like the ones you can find on Project Euler (http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems). Of course you can't take an actual problem from Project Euler, because they do not like solutions to be posted in the wild. But you can get your inspiration from there.

Henk-Jan van Tuyl

9:26 a.m.

New subject: haskell.org: what can be improved causing what efforts?

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:43:07 +0200, Matthias Görgens wrote:

...

...
code snippet: no hello world please. That's not a way to judge a language! But: a random haskell one line snippet with explanation would be cool.

Perhaps a solution to a problem like the ones you can find on Project Euler (http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems). Of course you can't take an actual problem from Project Euler, because they do not like solutions to be posted in the wild. But you can get your inspiration from there.

I like the quicksort example at http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Introduction very much; it shows how much time you can save when you use Haskell. -- Regards, Henk-Jan van Tuyl -- http://functor.bamikanarie.com http://Van.Tuyl.eu/ --

Matthias Görgens

10:05 a.m.

New subject: haskell.org: what can be improved causing what efforts?

...

I like the quicksort example at http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Introduction very much; it shows how much time you can save when you use Haskell.

Nice idea. Perhaps use a merge sort, because that is actually useful, because it does not degenerate for large lists. Matthias.

Bulat Ziganshin

10:14 a.m.

New subject: Re[2]: haskell.org: what can be improved causing what efforts?

Hello Matthias, Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:05:06 PM, you wrote:

...

...
I like the quicksort example at

...

Nice idea. Perhaps use a merge sort, because that is actually useful, because it does not degenerate for large lists.

Great idea if we want to keep Haskell community compact :))) -- Best regards, Bulat mailto:Bulat.Ziganshin@gmail.com

Matthias Görgens

10:32 a.m.

New subject: Re[2]: haskell.org: what can be improved causing what efforts?

...

...
Nice idea. Perhaps use a merge sort, because that is actually useful, because it does not degenerate for large lists.

Great idea if we want to keep Haskell community compact :)))

Or stay with quicksort --- which is treesort. :o)

wren ng thornton

10 Jul 10 Jul

1:29 a.m.

New subject: Leaner Haskell.org frontpage

Don Stewart wrote:

...

ttencate:

...
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 18:33, Don Stewart wrote:

...
ttencate:

...
Are there any kind of hard statistics and analytics that we can base this discussion upon? There is always room for improvement, but stumbling around in the dark making blind guesses may not be the best way to go. Although I personally feel that Lenny's proposed page is an improvement, statistics could tell us what actual people actually use the site for. Thanks Don, I should have thought of that. It's a start!

No matter what we decide, I'd like to advocate for maintaining the RSS feed of Hackage uploads on the front page -- this is what makes the page seem alive and active, and was introduced in response to John Hughes complaining the page was always out of date. (Similar to the Arch Linux package updates: http://www.archlinux.org/)

+1. I also like the events listing, since community events tend to be one of the hardest things to get a single concrete listing of. -- Live well, ~wren

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11 participants

participants (11)

Bulat Ziganshin
Derek Elkins
Don Stewart
Henk-Jan van Tuyl
Jason Dagit
Johan Tibell
Marc Weber
Matthias Görgens
Rick R
Thomas ten Cate
wren ng thornton