Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell

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Ketil Malde

27 May 2010 27 May '10

2:40 a.m.

writes:

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Or maybe this would be a nice research topic: how to generate C code that looks like it’s human written…

Nah, that's too easy: just add a sprinkling of buffer overflows, undefined behavior, and off-by one index errors. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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Pierre-Etienne Meunier

27 May 27 May

8:35 a.m.

New subject: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

There is a enormous bunch of C code out there on the internet. It is not that hard to simply take arbitrary commentaries and variable names from it, then using it to replace GHC's "jjaksh34$"-like variables in the core. Doing objective-c is a bit harder, as you have to use the objects, or else the choice of objective-c instead of c would look suspicious. This requires to find the rules that make an object programmer happy. El 27/05/2010, a las 02:40, Ketil Malde escribió:

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writes:

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Or maybe this would be a nice research topic: how to generate C code that looks like it’s human written…

Nah, that's too easy: just add a sprinkling of buffer overflows, undefined behavior, and off-by one index errors.

-k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Richard O'Keefe

7:10 p.m.

New subject: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

I think some of us may be missing the point about language identification. It's not a _technical_ question, it's a _legal_ one. Apple's lawyers have available to them exactly the kind of instrument they expect (as lawyers) to have: legal testimony. If you sign up to the new rules, you are entering into a contract, and whether Apple _engineers_ can tell what you originally wrong in or not, if Apple's _lawyers_ are called in, you will find yourself answering: Q: Well, Mr/Ms/Dr/ Developer, did you personally write any of the code in this program? A: Yes. Q: And did you write it directly in one of the programming languages allowed in the contract, or did you use some other programming language? A: The code that was checked into the repository was in C and had never been in any other known programming language, but it was actually generated from a table of player descriptions using a little AWK script. Q: So what you are saying is that you knowingly violated the terms of the contract? Given the code generation and refactoring capabilities of things like NetBeans and Eclipse, notions of "written" and "originally" are getting even fuzzier than they always were, which is saying something. If this ever gets to court, we may have a criterion imposed on us, possibly one as silly as the distinction between programs and algorithms said to be made in patent-land.

Pierre-Etienne Meunier

8:41 p.m.

New subject: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

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If this ever gets to court, we may have a criterion imposed on us, possibly one as silly as the distinction between programs and algorithms said to be made in patent-land.

I really do agree with your post, but what I dont get is why Apple does not intent anything against George Hotz, who publicly acknowledged having disassembled his iphone for performing FPGA black magic on it, and would sue someone for refusing objects and mallocs in programming. This makes me wonder if they really have the legal means of doing anything. Cheers, PE

John Meacham

9:23 p.m.

New subject: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 08:41:02PM -0400, Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote:

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If this ever gets to court, we may have a criterion imposed on us, possibly one as silly as the distinction between programs and algorithms said to be made in patent-land.

I really do agree with your post, but what I dont get is why Apple does not intent anything against George Hotz, who publicly acknowledged having disassembled his iphone for performing FPGA black magic on it, and would sue someone for refusing objects and mallocs in programming.

This makes me wonder if they really have the legal means of doing anything.

Sure, they have the legal means to simply deny your program access to the App store. They don't need to sue you, you did nothing wrong by writing a haskell->c compiler and writing a game in it. They just won't distribute it. They are already under no obligation to distribute your work or make it available. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/

Peter Verswyvelen

28 May 28 May

5:31 a.m.

New subject: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

It's interesting to see what will happen to Unity3D. This great casual game development tool offers support for exporting to iPhone. They are hit by Apple's new developer license - because they generate code - but apparently, apps generated by Unity3D do end up in the Apple store... Now.. Unity 3D is also planning to support Android in the future. I wouldn't be surprised that as soon as you can export games for both iPhone and Android with a simple click, that Apple would prohibit Unity3D generated games, as they have the power with their license agreement, who knows. See e.g. http://blogs.unity3d.com/2010/04/10/unity-and-the-iphone-os-4-0/ The strange thing is: Apple supports HTML5. But with HTML5 one would be able to write (and publish and sell) all kinds of Flash-like games directly on the internet, without Apple having any kind of control over what content gets on the iPhone... So I really don't get it... On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 3:23 AM, John Meacham wrote:

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On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 08:41:02PM -0400, Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote:

...
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If this ever gets to court, we may have a criterion imposed on us, possibly one as silly as the distinction between programs and algorithms said to be made in patent-land.

I really do agree with your post, but what I dont get is why Apple does not intent anything against George Hotz, who publicly acknowledged having disassembled his iphone for performing FPGA black magic on it, and would sue someone for refusing objects and mallocs in programming.

This makes me wonder if they really have the legal means of doing anything.

Sure, they have the legal means to simply deny your program access to the App store. They don't need to sue you, you did nothing wrong by writing a haskell->c compiler and writing a game in it. They just won't distribute it. They are already under no obligation to distribute your work or make it available.

John

-- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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John Meacham
Ketil Malde
Peter Verswyvelen
Pierre-Etienne Meunier
Richard O'Keefe