=======================LONG WINDED RANT WARNING
======================================
I am not try to hate on Haskell obviously I am a fan otherwise I
wouldn't be on this list but criticizing other languages
is not only a pointless waste of time it is logically flawed on many
levels.
A lot of the best software is written and still being written in C++ so
I will have to disagree with you that C++ is unreasonable. C++ is
dangerous and has its flaws especially in the hands of a noob but it is
also has some merits as well.
People have very logical reasons for choosing a programming language
including
1. Familiarity
2. Available people to work with
3. Tools
4. Libraries
5. Legacy
6. Political
7. Personal Preference
etc...
In terms of reasoning it is easier to reason in a language/Paradigm that
you are familiar with than
one that might be better but you are totally unfamiliar with and must
learn from scratch.
Go on IRC #HASKELL and see how many people are struggling conceptual
ideas like Monads, Arrows and Functors I don't go there a lot but every
time I am there are a couple of people who are asking questions
like just what is a Monad. For myself I want to learn Category Theory
because it seems powerful just like Set Theory (which I have found
extremely useful). I find manipulating pointers and mutable variables
much easier to understand and saner. Maybe if I was a mathematician
instead of an Engineer/Computer Scientist I would feel different.
Saying Haskell is better and everyone should use it because it is better
is about as futile
as saying we should all be speaking
Esperanto because it is better then English.
You would be an awfully lonely person with almost nobody to talk to
if all you spoke was Esperanto or Haskell for that matter.
I have yet to meet face to face another person who has even written toy
code in Haskell let alone any real significant app.
I can't use Haskell at work because no one could maintain it. I can't
use Haskell in my graduate studies since my supervisor can't read
Haskell. So I am stuck writing toy code as a hobby and an educational
experience.
Programs are mostly for humans to read and modify and lets face it there
isn't a lot of people fluent in Haskell.
So if I want to work and interact with other Software professionals I
better be able to speak the lingua franca which is a derivative of C aka
C/C++/C#/Java ect.
Obviously C++ isn't that bad because people can write good cool software
in it. I like Haskell but I
haven't seen a ton of Killer Haskell apps yet ( Or even one for that
matter). DARCS is coming close if they fix their conflict problems then
Haskell will have its first killer app that I know off. I heard they are
working on it this summer looking forward to it DARCS is really cool.
Sorry for the long rant but I get tired of people with their juvenile
and unconstructive statements like "C++ sucks"
Or Language X is better then Language Y even if it could ever be
objectively true (which I am sorry it can't be) who cares.
============================END
RANT===================================================
________________________________
From: Sebastian Sylvan [mailto:sebastian.sylvan@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:50 PM
To: Taillefer, Troy (EXP)
Cc: haskell-cafe@haskell.org
Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Tutorial on Haskell
On 4/18/07, Taillefer, Troy (EXP)
On 4/18/07, Taillefer, Troy (EXP)
Sorry for the long rant but I get tired of people with their juvenile and unconstructive statements like "C++ sucks" Or Language X is better then Language Y even if it could ever be objectively true (which I am sorry it can't be) who cares.
That's not really what I said, I simply said that Haskell is easier to reason about, and I find it is. And C++ is very difficult to reason about, so it's a good comparison (and an easy target :-)). This is getting a bit OT, the thread was about promoting the benefits of Haskell, not a language flame-war. The use of C++ was just a tongue-in-cheek example of a language where you have to spend more effort making sure your programs are correct because it's not as easy to reason about. End of message. Beginning of counter-rant: I write C/C++ every day, and a recent example of what I'm talking about is this: We have a tool which does some very complex and full-of-special-cases processing. I'll abstract it a bit. It essentially does the tasks A, B, and C. Now, I need information in B, which is only available after C is computed. First off, in Haskell that wouldn't be a problem 'cause you'd just set up the relationships between your data and go home early. In C++ not only is this more or less impossible to sort out nicely (while keeping separate concerns separate), but even the work-around (which in my case means moving parts of C down below B) is way too fragile to be practical when you risk disrupting production. I mean in my case I can see no obvious reason for why I shouldn't just move that code around by looking at it, it LOOKS like it should work, but because it's C++ such an operation is like remodelling a house of cards. There's not telling how many cases that will break in subtle ways because of all the side effects and invisible dependencies. The end result? We just avoid the problem by not doing the Right Thing in certain circumstances. It sucks, but it beats the alternative of trying to "reason" about a complex C++ program and ending up with some obscure error or crash six months later. There's a bit of a turing tarpit like danger here. Where you fall into the habit of being the good guy, "defending" languages and insisting that they aren't that bad, the end result is that progress is slowed down. Languages are just tools. Would you "defend" a Black&Decker power drill? Comparing and criticizing them in order to end up with better tools (and a better knowledge about which tool is better when) is useful and should be done more often by more people. C++ really is quite bad when it comes to being able to reason about your program. Really. In Haskell, if you change a few function calls you know exactly what will happen because it's localized, in C++ it's not so simple because you have to worry about the side effects (not to mention all the caveats in the language itself -- see the "Effective C++" books for the short list of why C++ will stab you in the back at the first chance if you're not careful). There are reasons for using C++, but there is no denying that there are many good reasons for why you should choose something else instead if you can, and since this thread was about promoting the good stuff about Haskell, the ease-of-reasoning argument is certainly relevant (and I don't think it's all that controversial to use C++ as an example of a language which is difficult to reason about). -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862
participants (2)
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Sebastian Sylvan -
Taillefer, Troy (EXP)