2008/6/17 Achim Schneider :

PR Stanley wrote:

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Blimey! Talk about rearranging the deckchairs :-) With respect, do you not think it'd be wiser for the community to deal with a total lack of proper type checking, the lack of any notion of the general concept of a function, or a whole range of other fundamental issues in PHP first before worrying about closures and lambda functions? I'm no language purist but PHP really does take the biscuit. My personal views and not in any way representing the list .

Oh yes they are. I'd rather smash my head repeatedly into a wall than suffering the agony of using a hacked cat.

Well, it's not like they're going to turn python into Haskell :-) If any flaw in a language is fundamental, fixing it is likely to cause compatibility... issues. And about closures done wrong, I think the biggest mistake (the only I spotted, actually) is the keyword "lexical". It seems to add unnecessary verbosity where plain lexical scope would suffice. It would be OK if lexical scope is impossible (which I doubt), and plain wrong if done for readability reasons. Is there any discussion about this point? Concerning OOP, I didn't really pay attention. My 2 cents. Take with a grain of salt, for I don't really know PHP Loup

But all the cool kids have em!

Seriously though computer languages are about getting things done. If this gets more things done for the PHP community in ways easier/simpler/faster than before then it's a win.

nerve gas would sort out the problem with mice in our building too, easier simpler faster than the stupid traps.

They are after all /their/ deckchairs to play with.

Yes, playing with deckchairs while the ship sinks with that bloody woman singing "my Heart Will Go on".

-ljr

PR Stanley wrote:

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Blimey! Talk about rearranging the deckchairs :-) With respect, do you not think it'd be wiser for the community to deal with a total lack of proper type checking, the lack of any notion of the general concept of a function, or a whole range of other fundamental issues in PHP first before worrying about closures and lambda functions? I'm no language purist but PHP really does take the biscuit. My personal views and not in any way representing the list . Paul

At 17:45 17/06/2008, you wrote:

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Hi,

The PHP community is discussing the adding of closures and lambdas to the language, see the proposal at http://wiki.php.net/rfc/closures

If someone with knowledge of both languages could take a quick look it would be great.

Thanks a lot

Karoly Negyesi

Ps. I am not a member of the PHP internals team, I am just a PHP developer but I am very very interested in getting these in my favourite language. _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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PR Stanley wrote:

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With respect, do you not think it'd be wiser for the community

[snip]

*disgusted*

This is exactly the sort of message that haskell-cafe does not normally contain. Let's not start now.

This is a civilized mailing list. Either comment on the nice gentlemen's PHP closure proposal from a language point of view, or don't say anything.

Paul: Uncivilised you say. Well, I would have thought the civilised thing would be to share your concerns discretely with the list moderator.

Hmm, I wonder who exactly this "list moderator" is supposed to be. We are usually adult enough around here to not need someone to look after us. I think Jules was well entitled to raise his objections about the tone of your email in public.

Instead you've chosen to make a public show of it. The Chinese have a saying, and I paraphrase - when you point the finger of accusation at someone/something you have three pointing back at yourself.

Well, at least not this finger... -- Dr. Janis Voigtlaender http://wwwtcs.inf.tu-dresden.de/~voigt/ mailto:voigt@tcs.inf.tu-dresden.de

With respect, I will not engage in further communication on that level. PR Stanley wrote:

PR Stanley wrote:

With respect, do you not think it'd be wiser for the community

[snip]

*disgusted*

This is exactly the sort of message that haskell-cafe does not normally contain. Let's not start now.

This is a civilized mailing list. Either comment on the nice gentlemen's PHP closure proposal from a language point of view, or don't say anything. Paul: Uncivilised you say. Well, I would have thought the civilised thing would be to share your concerns discretely with the list moderator.

Hmm, I wonder who exactly this "list moderator" is supposed to be. We are usually adult enough around here to not need someone to look after us. I think Jules was well entitled to raise his objections about the tone of your email in public.

Paul: As you say, we "are adult enougharound here to not need someone to look after us". So I don't need you or any other interfearing busybody to tell me what I can and can't say on Haskell Cafe. I expressed an opinion in a tongue-in-cheek way and at the end of my message expressed in clear terms that those were merely my views. Now, if you, Jules, Alex or some other wannabe Hitler have a problem with my freedom of expression then your best solution is to saddle up and get the hell out yourselves. This is the wrong place for setting up your tinpot dictatorship, Doctor! I am grateful for the help I've been getting from the list and my understanding of FP has vastly improved since my membership of this list but I refuse to tolerate bullies who use the list as a way of lifting themselves out of their own shitty lives. Now I am angry!

Instead you've chosen to make a public show of it. The Chinese have a saying, and I paraphrase - when you point the finger of accusation at someone/something you have three pointing back at yourself.

Well, at least not this finger...

Paul: you're not making sense.

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-- Dr. Janis Voigtlaender http://wwwtcs.inf.tu-dresden.de/~voigt/ mailto:voigt@tcs.inf.tu-dresden.de

Hallo, PR Stanley wrote:

Now, if you, Jules, Alex or some other wannabe Hitler have a problem with my freedom of expression then your best solution is to saddle up and get the hell out yourselves. This is the wrong place for setting up your tinpot dictatorship, Doctor! I am grateful for the help I've been getting from the list and my understanding of FP has vastly improved since my membership of this list but I refuse to tolerate bullies who use the list as a way of lifting themselves out of their own shitty lives. Now I am angry!

Wow, Godwin's in record time. Please don't confuse freedom of speech with name-calling, or distasteful, non-constructive comments about someone else's programming language. Stop making yourself look like a fool. -alex http://www.ventonegro.org/

On 18 Jun 2008, at 9:46 am, Jules Bean wrote:

This is exactly the sort of message that haskell-cafe does not normally contain. Let's not start now.

Reactions/arguments like the ones on this thread are perfect for Haskell - recursive and exponential. :) Could we have closure too? :-) Sorry, couldn't resist that one! Iain frequent firestarter and purveyor of bad puns

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PR Stanley wrote:

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With respect, do you not think it'd be wiser for the community

[snip]

*disgusted*

This is exactly the sort of message that haskell-cafe does not normally contain. Let's not start now.

This is a civilized mailing list. Either comment on the nice gentlemen's PHP closure proposal from a language point of view, or don't say anything.

Jules Hear, hear... Paul: You can shut up too, you bloody troll!

It seems to me that if a PHP developer sees the Haskell community as a resource for advice on programming language implementation, we should take this as a compliment to the Haskell community. Repaying that compliment with "your language sucks rocks"

strikes me as unwise.

I'm familiar with a lot of arguments for why PHP is a poorly-designed language, and have found them sufficiently persuasive that I haven't bothered to learn PHP. But I don't see any point to repeating those arguments on this list.

Paul: So, you've never bothered to learn PHP. Well, I happen to know the language very well and therefore feel I am in a good position to express my views about it. Unlike you, I don't base my judgment on rumours and hearsay. It is true that PHP fails to capture the spirit of the classical concept of a function. Type checking in PHP is equally poor. These are not just my opinions. Are we not to say anything critical about a programming language even if it happens to be substantively relevant lestwe should offend someone? God, if you want to stick up for your mates here at least come up with a convincing cover. Paul

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It seems to me that if a PHP developer sees the Haskell community as a resource for advice on programming language implementation, we should take this as a compliment to the Haskell community. Repaying that compliment with "your language sucks rocks" strikes me as unwise.

Not necessarily. It can be that they'd implement closures in PHP, make a dog's dinner of it (as they always do), and then we would be blamed for giving them bad advice.

Anyway, it seems that PR Stanley was forced to use PHP, no wonder he's a little mad at it.

Paul: How did you know? :-) You know, the funny thing is that all these so-called civilised people can find time and energy to have a go at me but can't be bothered to help the chap with the original query.

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It seems to me that if a PHP developer sees the Haskell community as a resource for advice on programming language implementation, we should take this as a compliment to the Haskell community. Repaying that compliment with "your language sucks rocks" strikes me as unwise.

Not necessarily. It can be that they'd implement closures in PHP, make a dog's dinner of it (as they always do), and then we would be blamed for giving them bad advice.

Anyway, it seems that PR Stanley was forced to use PHP, no wonder he's a little mad at it.

Paul: How did you know? :-) You know, the funny thing is that all these so-called civilised people can find time and energy to have a go at me but can't be bothered to help the chap with the original query.

I could, and I think you're full of it, too.

So there.

Paul: I rest my case! :-) you cowardly hypocrit!

PR Stanley wrote:

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[...]

Paul: I rest my case! :-) you cowardly hypocrit!

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Please take your own advice now, and rest your case. Like it or not (I think most people do like it), haskell-cafe has norms of behaviour that make it different to many pl mailing lists. Your sarky comments would have gone unnoticed if they had been accompanied with something constructive. Name calling is out. Paul: and who the bloody hell are you to tell me what's in or out? If you want the matter to rest then shut up yourself. I'm getting sick of you hypocrites who allow yourselves the audacity to attack me, totally gratuitously, yet when I try to defend myself you take the moral high ground. Tell me, why did you remove Jonathan Cast's message? Is he too big for you? Why don't you tell all the other

Paul: Why did you remove Jonathan Cast's message? Afraid somebody might understand why I responded the way I did? people who have been busy attacking me to modify their language? Are you afraid of upsetting the Haskell Cafe Mafia? Well, guess what, you damn thugs, I 'aint taking this lying down. You come back with more and I'll give you even more!

At 18:17 18/06/2008, you wrote:

PR Stanley wrote:

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PR Stanley wrote:

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[...]

Paul: I rest my case! :-) you cowardly hypocrit!

Paul: Why did you remove Jonathan Cast's message? Afraid somebody might understand why I responded the way I did?

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Please take your own advice now, and rest your case. Like it or not (I

think

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most people do like it), haskell-cafe has norms of behaviour that make it different to many pl mailing lists. Your sarky comments would have gone unnoticed if they had been accompanied with something constructive. Name calling is out. Paul: and who the bloody hell are you to tell me what's in or out? If you want the matter to rest then shut up yourself. I'm getting sick of you hypocrites who allow yourselves the audacity to attack me, totally gratuitously, yet when I try to defend myself you take the moral high ground. Tell me, why did you remove Jonathan Cast's message? Is he too big for you? Why don't you tell all the other people who have been busy attacking me to modify their language? Are you afraid of upsetting the Haskell Cafe Mafia? Well, guess what, you damn thugs, I 'aint taking this lying down. You come back with more and I'll give you even more!

I snipped Jonathan's message just because I was commenting on the tone of your response. Sorry if you think I presented your reply out of context, but my point is that I don't think there is any need for this in any context here. I do have a right to say that, even as someone who hardly ever posts but prefers to read the list...it's owned by everybody. This isn't the same thing as censorship and you'll notice I said norms, not rules of behaviour. No one's going to stop you making yourself look silly if you insist on doing it. As for Jonathan being too big for me, erm, who is he again? :-) Paul: So, now I am silly! I'd still prefer that to a coward and a hypocrite