I am very shortly travelling abroad for several weeks and will not have (reliable access to) a computer, but isn't this a task for one of the haskell web-apps people (HSP, HAppS, Turbinado, etc.) to show us once and for all why *their* library is better than the competition? :-) On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Don Stewart wrote:

Would you be willing to set up a little online voting system (or do you know of one) so we can implement this?

Assume there'll be < 10 candidates.

-- Don

sylvan:

...

2008/12/21 Paul Johnson <[1]paul@cogito.org.uk>

This suggests that the current effort to find a new logo for Haskell needs to go back to the basics. Its no good expecting consensus on one of the suggestions because there are too many options and everyone has their favourite. Nothing will attract a majority of the community.

I agree with this, which I why I would propose using Condorcet-voting. Personally I find the current logo horrendous. I think it's ugly and intimidating at the same time. I don't really care too much which one of the proposals should win, just so long as I can weed out some of the ones I really hate. Condorcet voting will pick a good compromise, where someone like me could just put all the acceptable ones at shared #1, and all the ones I dislike at #2., and someone with stronger opinions could flesh it out some more. The point being that the "least disliked" logo wins out. Maybe nobody will be happy, but hopefully most people won't be deeply unhappy with it. It would be a shame if there's lots of votes that are spread out over a large group of fairly similar logos that are good, and then a crappy one wins out with 6% of the vote because there weren't any others like it so the votes for that "style" weren't spread out over multiple entries. Wikipedia: [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_voting

-- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862

References

Visible links 1. mailto:paul@cogito.org.uk 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_voting

...

_______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

-- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862

2008/12/22 Eelco Lempsink :

Hmm, right. I started on a thing in HAppS. See http://github.com/eelco/voting/ for the source code (contributors more than welcome!) and http://code.tupil.com/voting/ for a live demo. It relies heavily on javascript, needs some work on the UI and there are a lot of features that could be added, but "it works".

Great. Could it be further hacked to accept ties, as suggested by Sebastian? Something like: thingie1 thingie1bis thingie3 thingie4 thingie4bis Regards, Loup

eelco:

On 21 dec 2008, at 22:26, Sebastian Sylvan wrote:

...

I am very shortly travelling abroad for several weeks and will not have (reliable access to) a computer, but isn't this a task for one of the haskell web-apps people (HSP, HAppS, Turbinado, etc.) to show us once and for all why *their* library is better than the competition? :-)

Hmm, right. I started on a thing in HAppS. See http://github.com/eelco/voting/ for the source code (contributors more than welcome!) and http://code.tupil.com/voting/ for a live demo. It relies heavily on javascript, needs some work on the UI and there are a lot of features that could be added, but "it works".

Yay! Yes, let's do something like this. -- Don

kili:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 01:23:33PM -0800, Don Stewart wrote:

...

Would you be willing to set up a little online voting system (or do you know of one) so we can implement this?

Assume there'll be < 10 candidates.

What about www.doodle.com?

That looks like it might be an option, embedded in a page with the 10 candidates. Thanks! Don

paul:

Paul Johnson wrote:

...

A call has gone out http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-December/051836.html for a new logo for Haskell. Candidates (including a couple http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Image:Haskell-logo-revolution.png of mine http://www.haskell.org/sitewiki/images/f/fd/Ouroborous-oval.png) are accumulating here http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas. There has also been a long thread on the Haskell Cafe mailing list.

So what's happening about this?

We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome! -- Don

wagner.andrew:

We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome!

-- Don

Can't we just use the haskell proposal reddit for this?

Hmm... not ideal. Would make a backup should all else fail.

Oh, we had a long discussion about the need for condorcet voting, not a system like the reddit which is prone to abuse. Also, it would be good to have the images inline. wagner.andrew:

Um, ok. Glad we could "discuss" it

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Don Stewart wrote:

wagner.andrew: > > We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end > of the year. Updates welcome! > > -- Don > > Can't we just use the haskell proposal reddit for this?

Hmm... not ideal. Would make a backup should all else fail.

bulat.ziganshin:

Hello Don,

Saturday, February 7, 2009, 8:20:23 PM, you wrote:

...

We need a voting site set up. There was some progress prior to the end of the year. Updates welcome!

i think that there are a lot of free voting/survey services available. the last one i went through was LimeSurvey available for any SF project and on separate site too

http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitedocs/wiki/Hosted%20Apps https://www.limeservice.com/

Before the new year's break, the progress we made towards deciding on a voting process was, http://groups.google.com/group/fa.haskell/msg/5d0ad1a681b044c7 Eelco implemented a demo condorcet voting system in HAppS. He then asked for help with some decisions: * Limit voting, if so how? Email confirmation, IP based, vote once, once per day? * Maybe don't show the results until the contest is over? Eelco, can we do simple email-based confirm to encourage people to vote only once, and can we keep the results closed until the vote process is over? -- Don

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:

We should limit voting, and limit based on IP. If we go via email, then anyone wishing extra votes merely needs to use mailinator.com (and its dozens of alternate domain names, to say nothing of competitors providing similar services) to vote as many times as they want. If we care about fraud, then it would be a very troublesome task to filter out all those ways to fraudulently vote; if we don't care about fraud, then email confirms are just a burden on honest users.

I don't know about other people, but for me it takes less time to change IP addresses than to sign up for a mail account. dhclient -r dsl0 && dhclient dsl0 vs. fill in a form on a webpage. --Max

IP based limitations are a terrible idea. Multiple users can be and often are behind the same IP if they're in some sort of intranet, be it corporate, academic, or simply multiple home computers. Mail-based authentication can be screwed with, sure, but it's also very easy to notice this (as opposed to ip nonsense) through simply eyeballing the results. There's no general everywhere way to prevent vote fraud. However, if we make it even require a mild bit of thought, that should be sufficient in this case, as there won't be enough votes to prevent some sort of rough eyeball-based check of the results, and if there are, then that's a sign of fraud for sure! Furthermore, there's very little incentive for someone to go the extra mile here, as we're voting for a haskell logo, and not, e.g., giving away ten thousand dollars. Furthermore, since I assume we'll only be presenting reasonable logos, there's not even some room for pranksters to stage a "write-in" of some gag slogan. Cheers, Sterl. On Feb 8, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Max Rabkin wrote:

...

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:

...

We should limit voting, and limit based on IP. If we go via email, then anyone wishing extra votes merely needs to use mailinator.com (and its dozens of alternate domain names, to say nothing of competitors providing similar services) to vote as many times as they want. If we care about fraud, then it would be a very troublesome task to filter out all those ways to fraudulently vote; if we don't care about fraud, then email confirms are just a burden on honest users.

I don't know about other people, but for me it takes less time to change IP addresses than to sign up for a mail account.

dhclient -r dsl0 && dhclient dsl0

vs. fill in a form on a webpage.

--Max

You don't sign up for a Mailinator account. That's the whole point. Take a look at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/ Mailinator

-- gwern _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Don Stewart wrote:

s.clover:

...

IP based limitations are a terrible idea. Multiple users can be and often are behind the same IP if they're in some sort of intranet, be it corporate, academic, or simply multiple home computers. Mail-based authentication can be screwed with, sure, but it's also very easy to notice this (as opposed to ip nonsense) through simply eyeballing the results. There's no general everywhere way to prevent vote fraud. However, if we make it even require a mild bit of thought, that should be sufficient in this case, as there won't be enough votes to prevent some sort of rough eyeball-based check of the results, and if there are, then that's a sign of fraud for sure! Furthermore, there's very little incentive for someone to go the extra mile here, as we're voting for a haskell logo, and not, e.g., giving away ten thousand dollars.

Exactly. Let's not wander down to the bikeshed :)

...

Furthermore, since I assume we'll only be presenting reasonable logos, there's not even some room for pranksters to stage a "write-in" of some gag slogan.

Right, only a subset of previously submitted ones.

-- Don

So.... does this mean no 'haskell YEEAAAAHH!'? -- gwern

Sterling Clover wrote:

IP based limitations are a terrible idea. Multiple users can be and often are behind the same IP if they're in some sort of intranet, be it corporate, academic, or simply multiple home computers. Mail-based authentication can be screwed with, sure, but it's also very easy to notice this (as opposed to ip nonsense) through simply eyeballing the results. There's no general everywhere way to prevent vote fraud. However, if we make it even require a mild bit of thought, that should be sufficient in this case, as there won't be enough votes to prevent some sort of rough eyeball-based check of the results, and if there are, then that's a sign of fraud for sure! Furthermore, there's very little incentive for someone to go the extra mile here, as we're voting for a haskell logo, and not, e.g., giving away ten thousand dollars. Furthermore, since I assume we'll only be presenting reasonable logos, there's not even some room for pranksters to stage a "write-in" of some gag slogan.

I suggest we do voting by email, and restrict voting to those who have ever posted on haskell-cafe before 1 Jan 2009. We could then have an auto-confirmation scheme similar to mailing list sign-up where the confirmation message is sent back to the originator to confirm their identity, containing a verification link to click on. I realise there are flaws in this, but it seems to be (a) cheap to implement and participate in, and (b) good enough. Cheers, Simon

marlowsd:

Sterling Clover wrote:

...

IP based limitations are a terrible idea. Multiple users can be and often are behind the same IP if they're in some sort of intranet, be it corporate, academic, or simply multiple home computers. Mail-based authentication can be screwed with, sure, but it's also very easy to notice this (as opposed to ip nonsense) through simply eyeballing the results. There's no general everywhere way to prevent vote fraud. However, if we make it even require a mild bit of thought, that should be sufficient in this case, as there won't be enough votes to prevent some sort of rough eyeball-based check of the results, and if there are, then that's a sign of fraud for sure! Furthermore, there's very little incentive for someone to go the extra mile here, as we're voting for a haskell logo, and not, e.g., giving away ten thousand dollars. Furthermore, since I assume we'll only be presenting reasonable logos, there's not even some room for pranksters to stage a "write-in" of some gag slogan.

I suggest we do voting by email, and restrict voting to those who have ever posted on haskell-cafe before 1 Jan 2009. We could then have an auto-confirmation scheme similar to mailing list sign-up where the confirmation message is sent back to the originator to confirm their identity, containing a verification link to click on.

I realise there are flaws in this, but it seems to be (a) cheap to implement and participate in, and (b) good enough.

Seems good enough. Who's going to tally the votes?

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:

Paul Johnson wrote:

...

A call has gone out < http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-December/051836.html> for a new logo for Haskell. Candidates (including a couple < http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Image:Haskell-logo-revolution.png> of mine http://www.haskell.org/sitewiki/images/f/fd/Ouroborous-oval.png) are accumulating here < http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas>. There has also been a long thread on the Haskell Cafe mailing list.

So what's happening about this?

I know I'm late to the party, but here's an observation anyway. It might be better to settle on an emblem first, and then a logo. Lambda is popular for functional languages, but it's not a distinctive feature of Haskell. What is distinctive of Haskell is category theory in general and the monad in particular. Both of which are strongly reminiscent of Alchemy. Believe it or not, it's possible to see the operations of the monad as the exact analog of certain aspects of Alchemy (I'm working on a detailed exposition.) Monad as Philosopher's Stone? Galleries of Alchemical emblems and symbols are easily found on the web; see for example the symbol for composition at http://www.iridius.info/current/info/ -gregg