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Ketil Malde

15 Oct 2010 15 Oct '10

5:11 a.m.

I needed GHC on a new machine, and went to download a binary tarball. First, I go to http://haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_6_12_3.html, which kindly suggests to get the Haskell Platform instead. Then, at http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/linux.html, I'm told that I first need GHC, and pointed back to the GHC download page. I'll manage, of course - but I think this is a bit more confusing than it need be. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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Don Stewart

15 Oct 15 Oct

11:26 a.m.

ketil:

I needed GHC on a new machine, and went to download a binary tarball.

First, I go to http://haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_6_12_3.html, which kindly suggests to get the Haskell Platform instead.

Then, at http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/linux.html, I'm told that I first need GHC, and pointed back to the GHC download page.

I'll manage, of course - but I think this is a bit more confusing than it need be.

Linux users don't have easy binary installers, usually. What can we do about this bootstrapping problem?

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Ketil Malde

2:47 p.m.

Don Stewart writes:

...
First, I go to http://haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_6_12_3.html, which kindly suggests to get the Haskell Platform instead.

...
Then, at http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/linux.html, I'm told that I first need GHC, and pointed back to the GHC download page.

Linux users don't have easy binary installers, usually. What can we do about this bootstrapping problem?

Uh, AFAIC, it's only a documentation bug - the GHC page seems to say that GHC comes with HP, the HP page tells to go get GHC first. I'd just change it to something like: GHC: Click here to download... then go see Haskell Platform for the standard set of libraries. HP: Go to GHC HQ and get GHC, then make sure to come back here for the libraries. (Assuming I understand how this is set up - I usually just get stuff from my distribution, and didn't come around to installing the HP) -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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Paulo Tanimoto

2:54 p.m.

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Ketil Malde wrote:

Uh, AFAIC, it's only a documentation bug - the GHC page seems to say that GHC comes with HP, the HP page tells to go get GHC first. I'd just change it to something like:

GHC: Click here to download... then go see Haskell Platform for the standard set of libraries.

HP: Go to GHC HQ and get GHC, then make sure to come back here for the libraries.

(Assuming I understand how this is set up - I usually just get stuff from my distribution, and didn't come around to installing the HP)

The warning on GHC 6.12.3 download page [1] says: """ Stop! For most users, we recommend installing the Haskell Platform instead of GHC. The current Haskell Platform release includes a recent GHC release as well as some other tools (such as cabal), and a larger set of libraries that are known to work together. This standalone GHC 6.12.3 release is aimed primarily at package maintainers and early adopters. """ That seems to be aimed at Windows (and Mac?) users, who would indeed get a binary installer that contains GHC and the libraries from Haskell Platform, right? So in a sense "for most users" is right. But I agree with you, we could improve the message. Paulo [1] http://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_6_12_3.html

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Ketil Malde

2:54 p.m.

Don Stewart writes:

Linux users don't have easy binary installers, usually.

Speaking about which - this is made a lot more difficult than it need be due to the way libc doesn't work with statically linked executables. Basically, it seems to manually load hardwired dynamic libraries for various functionality that you typically *don't* want in your compiler (nsswitch and whatnot). Perhaps there's a stripped down libc that ghc could link with that avoids this? Or some other solution to this. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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Brandon S Allbery KF8NH

7:57 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/15/10 11:26 , Don Stewart wrote:

Linux users don't have easy binary installers, usually. What can we do about this bootstrapping problem?

I thought the answer to that was supposed to be "bug your distribution to package the Platform". - -- brandon s. allbery [linux,solaris,freebsd,perl] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAky46mEACgkQIn7hlCsL25XBNgCfefI3QCUmwGTMA5KlE05QY3S6 tAMAnjPMmFRQitxhB97o0lysnfGL41yj =VTuz -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Ketil Malde

16 Oct 16 Oct

12:07 p.m.

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH writes:

...
Linux users don't have easy binary installers, usually. What can we do about this bootstrapping problem?

I thought the answer to that was supposed to be "bug your distribution to package the Platform".

In my case, it's more like bug the IT department to get with the times and drop distributions like RHEL and CentOS. And I do try, but to my perpetual chagrin, I'm not always as high on their priority list as I might wish... As a developer, I'd like to work with cutting-edge compilers and tools. As a user, I want to run on the conservatively configured servers in the basement. Glibc makes my binaries non-portable between systems, and somewhat ironically, the same issue that prevents me to compile on my development system and deploy on the server, also prevents me from deploying modern development tools on the server and make a compatible build. It seems to me that the easiest solution is to have a different libc to link against for static builds, but given the huge amount of complaints about this around the net, and the glaring lack of any solution, I guess it's not that easy. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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Brandon S Allbery KF8NH

1:35 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/16/10 12:07 , Ketil Malde wrote:

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH writes:

...
...
Linux users don't have easy binary installers, usually. What can we do about this bootstrapping problem?

...
I thought the answer to that was supposed to be "bug your distribution to package the Platform".

In my case, it's more like bug the IT department to get with the times and drop distributions like RHEL and CentOS. And I do try, but to my perpetual chagrin, I'm not always as high on their priority list as I might wish...

There is that, isn't there? And, as one of aforementioned IT department folks (admittedly in a different context) it's not always as high on our priority lists as we might wish, and — worse — we may have our hands tied by someone even higher in the food chain. (I'm going to have to drop gtk2hs here because recent versions are incompatible with the glib (gtk+, oddly, is fine) we have installed on about a third of the machines in the department, and we're *already* failing to get those upgraded to something halfway modern....) - -- brandon s. allbery [linux,solaris,freebsd,perl] allbery@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allbery@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAky54lcACgkQIn7hlCsL25WifgCgi/sMjBuqXm8jOIcpKnuCIVde meQAoNbbpu2hfAedLqRHmLEZuN66zuN6 =pgJg -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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participants (4)

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
Don Stewart
Ketil Malde
Paulo Tanimoto