Doing people's homework?
I'm not really hip to the culture here so this is just an observation, but some of the recent questions posted to this list (and beginners@haskell.org) look a lot like someone's homework. Is anyone here concerned about avoiding giving the full answer, or maybe it's really none of our business (we aren't responsible for anyone's learning process)?
I think the consensus is "Help, not do" when it comes to homework (esp. on -beginners). At least, thats what I try to do. I've always got the sense that that is what the community expects. On Sep 28, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Michael P Mossey wrote:
I'm not really hip to the culture here so this is just an observation, but some of the recent questions posted to this list (and beginners@haskell.org) look a lot like someone's homework. Is anyone here concerned about avoiding giving the full answer, or maybe it's really none of our business (we aren't responsible for anyone's learning process)?
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I think the consensus is "Help, not do" when it comes to homework (esp. on -beginners). At least, thats what I try to do. I've always got the sense that that is what the community expects.
Yep, there's a whole policy on this. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Homework_help TomMD
Am Dienstag 29 September 2009 01:40:02 schrieb Michael P Mossey:
I'm not really hip to the culture here so this is just an observation, but some of the recent questions posted to this list (and beginners@haskell.org) look a lot like someone's homework. Is anyone here concerned about avoiding giving the full answer, or maybe it's really none of our business (we aren't responsible for anyone's learning process)?
The (unofficial and not enforceable) policy is here: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Homework_help If you notice somebody wants you to do their homework, you don't. If the proper questions are asked, you help (guide into the right direction). If you don't realize soon enough that somebody wanted their homework done and you've given a complete answer, hopefully their instructors read the lists, too.
If you do a student's homework, you are cheating that student out of an education. He/She may realize that toooo late in the future. -- Regards, Casey
On 29 Sep 2009, at 03:19, Casey Hawthorne wrote:
If you do a student's homework, you are cheating that student out of an education.
He/She may realize that toooo late in the future. -- Regards, Casey
I'm not sure I agree with that. If they're old enough to be doing Haskell homework then they're old enough to make their own decisions and take the consequences of that. As they might say in Calvinist Scotland, "Let the child play with the knife, they'll soon learn" :) Personally, I tend to find "exercises" without access to the answers a poor way to learn. You'll learn more from a well crafted example than you ever will by struggling at something yourself. Regards Iain
Am Dienstag 29 September 2009 13:04:38 schrieb Iain Barnett:
Personally, I tend to find "exercises" without access to the answers a poor way to learn. You'll learn more from a well crafted example than you ever will by struggling at something yourself.
I sort of disagree. You'll learn more if you can read a well crafted example *after* you've struggled to get something good on your own. If you start inspecting an example before you've spent considerable effort understanding the matter on your own, you're likely to miss some important things.
On 29 Sep 2009, at 12:48, Daniel Fischer wrote:
Am Dienstag 29 September 2009 13:04:38 schrieb Iain Barnett:
Personally, I tend to find "exercises" without access to the answers a poor way to learn. You'll learn more from a well crafted example than you ever will by struggling at something yourself.
I sort of disagree. You'll learn more if you can read a well crafted example *after* you've struggled to get something good on your own. If you start inspecting an example before you've spent considerable effort understanding the matter on your own, you're likely to miss some important things.
So, if I was trying to come up with a solution to a problem that possibly has multiple solutions, like building an engine for a car, I would do better if I hadn't seen a (well crafted) working engine by someone else than if I had? If effort is there, then give me the example any time, because insight will be quicker. If you're going to be lazy then it doesn't matter either way. Regards, Iain
On 2009-09-29 13:47 +0100 (Tue), Iain Barnett wrote:
So, if I was trying to come up with a solution to a problem that possibly has multiple solutions, like building an engine for a car, I would do better if I hadn't seen a (well crafted) working engine by someone else than if I had?
Yes, because the work you'd done thinking about it would give you a better understanding of the problem, even if the answer you'd come up with was completely wrong. That said, learning from the good example afterwards is without question extremely valuable.
If effort is there, then give me the example any time, because insight will be quicker.
Actually, I find that for many problems there is no quick insight. The
true understanding of the problem comes with struggling with it, rather
than mastering it.
cjs
--
Curt Sampson
Iain Barnett wrote:
So, if I was trying to come up with a solution to a problem that possibly has multiple solutions, like building an engine for a car, I would do better if I hadn't seen a (well crafted) working engine by someone else than if I had?
If effort is there, then give me the example any time, because insight will be quicker. If you're going to be lazy then it doesn't matter either way.
This could be a question of learning styles. You wrote "If the effort is there..." so I assume that means you have a way of putting effort into understanding an engine design, even if you have never seen an engine design before. Furthermore you have some way of digesting and transforming that knowledge so you can make new designs rather than be a slave to imitation. I definitely cannot do this very well. I learn much faster by struggling with a problem so I learn where the "problem" is---what is the key thing I'm trying to do, and why do my efforts seem to fall short? Why do I feel confused? And THEN looking at the answer to get that "aha!" moment. This is especially nice in learning Haskell because solutions tend to be elegant and contain deep insights. Isn't there some saying like: "See and remember for a day. Do and remember for a lifetime." In struggling to answer, a student is not simpling "doing" the problem, but is actually "doing" part of the thinking that led to the creation of Haskell. They are retracing problems and alternative solutions that are in some way related to the history of computer science. Mike
Am Dienstag 29 September 2009 14:47:27 schrieb Iain Barnett:
On 29 Sep 2009, at 12:48, Daniel Fischer wrote:
Am Dienstag 29 September 2009 13:04:38 schrieb Iain Barnett:
Personally, I tend to find "exercises" without access to the answers a poor way to learn. You'll learn more from a well crafted example than you ever will by struggling at something yourself.
I sort of disagree. You'll learn more if you can read a well crafted example *after* you've struggled to get something good on your own. If you start inspecting an example before you've spent considerable effort understanding the matter on your own, you're likely to miss some important things.
So, if I was trying to come up with a solution to a problem that possibly has multiple solutions, like building an engine for a car, I would do better if I hadn't seen a (well crafted) working engine by someone else than if I had?
I thought we were talking about homework for a school/university course. I tacitly assumed that the principles and some examples would have previously been given in the lectures. Then you're given the homework exercise to build upon those to solve a bigger task.
If effort is there, then give me the example any time, because insight will be quicker.
But it will be deeper if you explored the matter first without your vision constrained by the example.
If you're going to be lazy then it doesn't matter either way.
True.
Regards, Iain
If you do a student's homework, you are cheating that student out of an education.
Personally, I tend to find "exercises" without access to the answers a poor way to learn. You'll learn more from a well crafted example than you ever will by struggling at something yourself.
In these lines, the homework policy could be extended to contain great solutions to all typical homework tasks. Teachers could build on that by instructing students to study and use such solutions to solve other tasks. Bonus could be given to students who could find even better solutions than those in the page, maybe with exponencial prizes like Knuth's checks :) Best, Maurício
participants (9)
-
Casey Hawthorne -
Curt Sampson -
Daniel Fischer -
Iain Barnett -
Joe Fredette -
Maurício CA -
Michael Mossey -
Michael P Mossey
-
Thomas DuBuisson