I thought Apple had stopped bundling the dev tools with installation DVDs? On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Judah Jacobson wrote:

Hi John,

You should be able to install the Apple Developer Tools directly from one of the software installation DVDs that come with the Mac. If you're not downloading the tools from online, you shouldn't need to register.

Best, -Judah

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 1:03 PM, John D. Ramsdell wrote:

...

I rarely use a Mac because it is too cute, but I bought one for my wife. I'd like to install GHC on her Mac just to test Haskell Platform and cabal install. (I rarely use Windows too, but testing GHC & cabal install is completely painless.) To do a quick test, do I really have to register as an Apple developer, or is there a way to test the platform anonymously?

Someone who some times worries about privacy,

John

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Quoth Daniel Peebles ,

I thought Apple had stopped bundling the dev tools with installation DVDs?

Do you have an install DVD with no Xcode on it? I have it on a 10.6 DVD, when would this have happened (or stopped happening)? Quoth Nathan Howell ,

XCode 4 is for sale in the App Store for $5. You do need an account, but not a developer account... so it may be a bit more palatable.

But you don't need Xcode 4, do you? The Xcode 3 that comes with the install DVD will work fine! The text on the GHC download page should provide abundant clues to the process and requirements. I think it makes sense to believe what the port maintainer says there, for starters anyway. Donn

$5 for XCode is annoying, but apparently Apple "had" to start charging for it because of Sarbanes-Oxley and the way they set up their "generally accepted accounting principles". G On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 9:25 PM, John D. Ramsdell wrote:

...

But you don't need Xcode 4, do you?  The Xcode 3 that comes with the install DVD will work fine!

I'm still looking for the install DVD that my wife has carefully put aside for "safe keeping".  All-in-all, casual use of Haskell seems much easier on Linux and Windows.

John

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-- Gregory Collins

Quoth Chris Smith ,

That's interesting... whatever the reason, though, I concur that using Haskell seems much easier on Linux and Windows. I had to abandon a plan to introduce Haskell in a class I taught this past semester because of issues with getting it installed on the Macintosh laptops that some of the students had. It's very unfortunate that Haskell on Mac requires software which can neither be bundled in the install kit nor downloaded freely from elsewhere.

The part of this that is actually needed is the GCC build system, right? Can't that be bundled on its own in a freely downloadable location?

Spoken as a non Mac user...

Exactly. If you don't use MacOS, let alone develop on it, I guess it's possible that this looks like an formidable obstacle, but then wouldn't that pose some limits to how much you're going to be able to enjoy GHC anyway? I might be missing something here, since I have never really gotten into the Darwin ports thing, but it seems to me like the "real" issues confronting Haskell developers on MacOS have to do with access to the Cocoa etc. APIs, and in view of that it seems possibly sort of suicidal to provide an install option that more or less guarantees that no solution to that problem will work (because the free gcc package won't include Cocoa.) Donn

it won't be a pleasant choice to fork over a good chunk of money to Apple for the use of free software that they didn't develop.

Whilst I acknowledge your painful situation, I'd like to rebut the idea that Apple stole someone else's free software and are selling it on. In fact, Apple developed, or paid for development of, quite a chunk of gcc: the objective-C front end and LLVM back end at least. In paying for XCode 4, you are getting a lot of proprietary code in addition to gcc. However, XCode 3 remains free to download, if you are a registered Apple developer. Registration is completely free of charge: http://developer.apple.com/programs/register/ You may find other links that make registration appear to cost $99 - but those are for the "iOS" or "Mac" developer programs, not the "Apple" developer program. The ones that charge money enable the right to publish software in the App Stores, which you do not need. I think you can download the free version of the XCode 3 installer, burn it to a DVD, and pass the DVD round your students. Regards, Malcolm

From: Chris Smith June 6, 2011 8:58 AM

On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 08:51 +0100, Malcolm Wallace wrote:

...

In paying for XCode 4, you are getting a lot of proprietary code in addition to gcc.

True... but not *using* it.

...

However, XCode 3 remains free to download, if you are a registered Apple developer.  Registration is completely free of charge:     http://developer.apple.com/programs/register/

Ah, thank you!  I was indeed under the impression that the registration needed here was the same one that costs $99.  It's good to know that's not true, and practically speaking, this at least makes it possible to get things set up on Macs for my class.

There do seem to be source releases for the open source components http://www.opensource.apple.com/release/developer-tools-40/ Maybe someone interested could build a self-contained gcc to include with the Haskell Platform, as on Windows. Neither owning nor regularly using a Mac, I just looked into this after seeing the surprising claim that charging for Xcode 4 was motivated by accounting requirements. Brandon

On 6/06/2011, at 8:11 AM, Chris Smith wrote:

That's interesting... whatever the reason, though, I concur that using Haskell seems much easier on Linux and Windows. I had to abandon a plan to introduce Haskell in a class I taught this past semester because of issues with getting it installed on the Macintosh laptops that some of the students had.

You can always (1) Install VirtualBox -- it's free. (2) Set up an Ubuntu VM inside VirtualBox -- Ubuntu is also free. (3) Install Haskell in Ubuntu. I've done exactly that on the Mac laptop I use. I also have Haskell running under Mac OS with no special problems.

It's very unfortunate that Haskell on Mac requires software which can neither be bundled in the install kit nor downloaded freely from elsewhere.

Note that the price for XCode applies to *XCode*. It's not a price for *GCC*. Having XCode, I was about to download GCC 4.5, build it, and install it in my own ~/local directory. Presumably, having built it, I could have copied it somewhere else.

On 6 Jun 2011, at 13:49, Lyndon Maydwell wrote:

I would be fantastic if XCode wasn't a dependency. ...

Not to detract at all from the work of the wonderful GHC and Haskell Platform contributors in any way. For me it would just make it that much easier to convince mac-using friends to give Haskell a try.

The ghc team already bundle a copy of gcc in their Windows distribution, precisely because it can be fiddly to get a working copy of gcc for that platform otherwise. I wonder if they would consider the possibility of shipping gcc on Mac too? (There may be good reasons not to do that, but let's have the discussion.) Regards, Malcolm

On 06/06/11 15:57, Daniel Peebles wrote:

Isn't gcc just used for its assembler and object file creation, these days, now that via-C is deprecated? Or are there other parts of it that are needed?

The C compiler is needed to support foreign export and foreign import "wrapper", and we also generate C fragments for some initialisation code now (in 7.2.1) as part of some changes I made to the way module initialisation is done. The C compiler is also used to support -rtsopts, which requires compiling a small C file and linking it into the binary. It's sometimes handy to be able to compile C files with GHC, if you're not using Cabal. Cheers, Simon

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Malcolm Wallace mailto:malcolm.wallace@me.com> wrote:

On 6 Jun 2011, at 13:49, Lyndon Maydwell wrote:

> I would be fantastic if XCode wasn't a dependency. ... > > Not to detract at all from the work of the wonderful GHC and Haskell > Platform contributors in any way. For me it would just make it that > much easier to convince mac-using friends to give Haskell a try.

The ghc team already bundle a copy of gcc in their Windows distribution, precisely because it can be fiddly to get a working copy of gcc for that platform otherwise. I wonder if they would consider the possibility of shipping gcc on Mac too? (There may be good reasons not to do that, but let's have the discussion.)

Regards, Malcolm

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On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Richard O'Keefe wrote:

...

On 6/06/2011, at 8:11 AM, Chris Smith wrote:

...

That's interesting... whatever the reason, though, I concur that using Note that the price for XCode applies to *XCode*. It's not a price for *GCC*. Having XCode, I was about to download GCC 4.5, build it, and install it in my own ~/local directory. Presumably, having built it, I could have copied it somewhere else.

Correction: "about" should have been "able". I don't actually use XCode on the laptop, just the gcc 4.5 I built from sources and the clang ditto.