Re: [Haskell-cafe] Software patents covered in GHC?

austin seipp

20 Jun 2011 20 Jun '11

5:21 p.m.

*sigh* CC'ing to the rest of haskell-cafe for completeness. I need to change 'reply all' to a default in my email I guess. On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:19 PM, austin seipp wrote:

...

Hello,

Realistically, there probably is. Considering everything down to linked lists are patented by the USPO, I'd be willing to bet (at least a dollar or two) that there are many patents out there that apply to the code used in GHC. I don't know if you could say anything different about *any* nontrivial software, to be quite honest.

IANAL however, so I won't attempt to claim in what countries these patents apply, nor could I cite you patent numbers (legalese being terse and software patents so seemingly open to interpretation sometimes, it would be hard to narrow down anyway I think.)

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Shakthi Kannan wrote:

...
Hi,

I would like to know if there are any software algorithms used in the Glasgow Haskell Compiler that have been patented? If yes, in which countries do they apply?

Just curious to know.

SK

-- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com

_______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

-- Regards, Austin

-- Regards, Austin

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Manuel M T Chakravarty

21 Jun 21 Jun

12:21 a.m.

New subject: Software patents covered in GHC?

austin seipp:

...

*sigh* CC'ing to the rest of haskell-cafe for completeness. I need to change 'reply all' to a default in my email I guess.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:19 PM, austin seipp wrote:

...
Hello,

Realistically, there probably is. Considering everything down to linked lists are patented by the USPO, I'd be willing to bet (at least a dollar or two) that there are many patents out there that apply to the code used in GHC. I don't know if you could say anything different about *any* nontrivial software, to be quite honest.

IANAL however, so I won't attempt to claim in what countries these patents apply, nor could I cite you patent numbers (legalese being terse and software patents so seemingly open to interpretation sometimes, it would be hard to narrow down anyway I think.)

In fact, you are better of not to know. Given that GHC (like all non-trivial software) surely infringes on some patents, the damages that a patent holder can sue you for are less if you do not know about the patents you are infringing on. IIRC, a plaintiff can triple the charges if they can reasonably show that you have been aware of the patents that you are infringing on. Nasty business! Manuel

...

...
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Shakthi Kannan wrote:

...
Hi,

I would like to know if there are any software algorithms used in the Glasgow Haskell Compiler that have been patented? If yes, in which countries do they apply?

Just curious to know.

SK

-- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com

_______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

-- Regards, Austin

-- Regards, Austin

_______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Erik de Castro Lopo

6:22 a.m.

New subject: Software patents covered in GHC?

Manuel M T Chakravarty wrote:

...

In fact, you are better of not to know. Given that GHC (like all non-trivial software) surely infringes on some patents, the damages that a patent holder can sue you for are less if you do not know about the patents you are infringing on. IIRC, a plaintiff can triple the charges if they can reasonably show that you have been aware of the patents that you are infringing on. Nasty business!

ON the up side, the fact that GHC is Open Source software available from a public repository and a lot of what is in GHC is published in papers which are widely and freely available on the internet means that stuf fthat was in GHC first can never be patented (or at least can be successfully challenged when it is). Erik -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Erik de Castro Lopo http://www.mega-nerd.com/

Manuel M T Chakravarty

24 Jun 24 Jun

1:28 p.m.

New subject: Software patents covered in GHC?

Erik de Castro Lopo:

...

Manuel M T Chakravarty wrote:

...
In fact, you are better of not to know. Given that GHC (like all non-trivial software) surely infringes on some patents, the damages that a patent holder can sue you for are less if you do not know about the patents you are infringing on. IIRC, a plaintiff can triple the charges if they can reasonably show that you have been aware of the patents that you are infringing on. Nasty business!

ON the up side, the fact that GHC is Open Source software available from a public repository and a lot of what is in GHC is published in papers which are widely and freely available on the internet means that stuf fthat was in GHC first can never be patented (or at least can be successfully challenged when it is).

That's right, but it doesn't help any of us anything. The costs of defending against a patent claim (even if the claim can eventually be overturned) are much to high to bear for anybody, but major corporations. In other words, it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong if you can't pay the legal bill. This is not just theory as a fair number of mobile app developer recently found out: http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/05/lodsys-sues-7-app-developers-in-east... Manuel

Erik de Castro Lopo

25 Jun 25 Jun

9:21 a.m.

New subject: Software patents covered in GHC?

Manuel M T Chakravarty wrote:

...

That's right, but it doesn't help any of us anything. The costs of defending against a patent claim (even if the claim can eventually be overturned) are much to high to bear for anybody, but major corporations. In other words, it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong if you can't pay the legal bill. This is not just theory as a fair number of mobile app developer recently found out:

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/05/lodsys-sues-7-app-developers-in-east...

Yep, patents are a bitch for small independant developers stuck between Apple's onerous AppStore conditions and patent trolls like Lodsys. However, for open source projects like GHC, there are a number of organisations like the Software Freedom Law Center: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/ that provide (at least some) patent defense for open source projects. Its also possible for open source projects to 'design around' patent issues. For instance there was a patent on the VFAT file format implementaion in the Linux kernel that was avoided by careful reading of the patent and working around the patents specifics: http://lwn.net/Articles/338981/ Erik -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Erik de Castro Lopo http://www.mega-nerd.com/

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austin seipp
Erik de Castro Lopo
Manuel M T Chakravarty