MigMit writes:

Don't worry, you don't need PhD to understand monads.

Good one! So what is it that you do need? And how do I get it? ;-) AntC

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 3:20 PM, AntC wrote:

Re work: curiously, I recently received an unsolicited email from Google inviting me to 'have a conversation' [managementspeak yeuch!]. This was apparently based on my volume of postings on the forum. (I suspect not on their quality ;-) I suggested that first they look at my LinkedIn page, which would have roughly revealed my age -- already greater than yours will be when you 'come out of school'.

Since then, nothing. Nada. Not even an acknowledgement. Rude, I call it.

Interesting. They're still pinging me every few months, and it is not that hard to find out my age (or even get a good rough estimate by checking usenet archives). -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allbery.b@gmail.com ballbery@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad http://sinenomine.net

I got the same thing, but based on my github account. The person who contacted me has a consistent LinkedIn account, and his email passed SPF, DKIM, and rPTR. On 12/3/2013 4:48 PM, Steffen Schuldenzucker wrote:

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 20:20:37 +0000 (UTC) AntC wrote:

...

[...] Re work: curiously, I recently received an unsolicited email from Google inviting me to 'have a conversation' [managementspeak yeuch!]. This was apparently based on my volume of postings on the forum. (I suspect not on their quality ;-) I suggested that first they look at my LinkedIn page, which would have roughly revealed my age -- already greater than yours will be when you 'come out of school'.

Since then, nothing. Nada. Not even an acknowledgement. Rude, I call it.

I think you'll find ageism is still rife in the industry. Sorry for totally leaving the original topic here, but:

Same for me: Got an e-mail from some "technical sourcer", replied (I'll actually be looking for a job soon), never got anything back. - Twice!

I imagine they do a

...

forM_ (users haskell_cafe) $ \u -> when ("functional" `elem` words (linkedin_page u)) $ send (std_email u) u , but with several agents which don't sync back their results.

Doesn't seem to be age-related, though. (I'm 25)

-- Steffen

Same here, except that I got a reply to my reply :-) Janek Dnia środa, 4 grudnia 2013, Alp Mestanogullari napisał:

I have been hit by a few since the beginning of the summer too. All of them were actual recruiters, I exchanged a few emails with some of them and had one on the phone. I think they are expanding a few teams in Europe and are just looking for "more new googlers than usual".

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Joe Quinn wrote:

...

I got the same thing, but based on my github account. The person who contacted me has a consistent LinkedIn account, and his email passed SPF, DKIM, and rPTR.

On 12/3/2013 4:48 PM, Steffen Schuldenzucker wrote:

...

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 20:20:37 +0000 (UTC)

AntC wrote:

...

[...] Re work: curiously, I recently received an unsolicited email from Google inviting me to 'have a conversation' [managementspeak yeuch!]. This was apparently based on my volume of postings on the forum. (I suspect not on their quality ;-) I suggested that first they look at my LinkedIn page, which would have roughly revealed my age -- already greater than yours will be when you 'come out of school'.

Since then, nothing. Nada. Not even an acknowledgement. Rude, I call it.

I think you'll find ageism is still rife in the industry.

Sorry for totally leaving the original topic here, but:

Same for me: Got an e-mail from some "technical sourcer", replied (I'll actually be looking for a job soon), never got anything back. - Twice!

I imagine they do a

...

forM_ (users haskell_cafe) $ \u -> when ("functional" `elem` words (linkedin_page u)) $ send (std_email u) u

, but with several agents which don't sync back their results.

Doesn't seem to be age-related, though. (I'm 25)

-- Steffen

_______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

The surprising thing to me about all this is that I thought Google only hires Ph. D.s who solve difficult mathematical problems displayed on billboards. On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Joe Quinn wrote:

I got the same thing, but based on my github account. The person who contacted me has a consistent LinkedIn account, and his email passed SPF, DKIM, and rPTR.

On 12/3/2013 4:48 PM, Steffen Schuldenzucker wrote:

...

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 20:20:37 +0000 (UTC) AntC wrote:

...

[...] Re work: curiously, I recently received an unsolicited email from Google inviting me to 'have a conversation' [managementspeak yeuch!]. This was apparently based on my volume of postings on the forum. (I suspect not on their quality ;-) I suggested that first they look at my LinkedIn page, which would have roughly revealed my age -- already greater than yours will be when you 'come out of school'.

Since then, nothing. Nada. Not even an acknowledgement. Rude, I call it.

I think you'll find ageism is still rife in the industry.

Sorry for totally leaving the original topic here, but:

Same for me: Got an e-mail from some "technical sourcer", replied (I'll actually be looking for a job soon), never got anything back. - Twice!

I imagine they do a

...

forM_ (users haskell_cafe) $ \u -> when ("functional" `elem` words (linkedin_page u)) $ send (std_email u) u

, but with several agents which don't sync back their results.

Doesn't seem to be age-related, though. (I'm 25)

-- Steffen

_______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

-- Your ship was destroyed in a monadic eruption.

On 12/03/2013 05:26 PM, Dennis Raddle wrote:

All replies have been helpful. I realize my question is vague, and that's partly because I don't know what area within CS interests me. I may have to do at least an MS to find out. What I meant was whether you would like to do research or teach (or both) -- not a specific area. While you will probably be required to teach some classes anyway (as a TA, which means grading, supervising labs and consultations), most of your time in grad school pursuing a PhD would be spent on research. That's because producing novel and relevant research results is an absolute requirement for getting a PhD (while teaching a lot of classes, on the other hand, is not). In pursuing a PhD it would help if you enjoy (or at least can tolerate) the very process of research and feel passionate about your research topic. Otherwise, you might be in for quite a few miserable years.

On 4/12/2013, at 11:26 AM, Dennis Raddle wrote:

Hi Andrey and list,

All replies have been helpful. I realize my question is vague, and that's partly because I don't know what area within CS interests me. I may have to do at least an MS to find out.

As someone who has supervised a number of MSc and PhD students, let me say "absolutely!" to that. Quite a lot depends on the student, quite a lot on the supervisor, and quite a lot on the working relationship between them. Your supervisor will help you with University administration procedures; your supervisor will help you look for funds; your supervisor will direct your attention to relevant related research; your supervisor will help you understand novel technical material; your supervisor will in fact be quite a helpful person. BUT your supervisor is going to expect you to take responsibility for your own work and to do it. Some of it is going to be really enjoyable, thinking up new algorithms or data structures or analysis methods or whatever. Some of it is going to be DRUDGERY grinding through getting the experimental results to show that your ideas _work_. And for a lot of students, a major thing that will help you get through the drudgery is the feeling "This is *MY* project; d--n the supervisor, *I* want the results!"

I've been struggling with health problems for many years, so my work in programming has been part-time, minimal, and not very interesting to me. I'm not in a good position right now to determine what I would really like to do.

Health problems need not be an issue. I can't speak for universities where you live, but this one is pretty supportive of people with health and disability problems. As for what you would really like to do, there's really no substitute for talking to people to find out what it's like. Had you considered going to _any_ nearby University with a CS school and asking around if anyone needs a part time research assistant? That will give you an insider's view of what it's like to do research.

Right now I have a small gig teaching Python and numpy to a local psychiatrist who wants to write software for voice analysis. He is a smart guy, but of course we are starting at the beginning. It's quite pleasureful to see things click in his brain. We are working on just basic ideas, like organization of code into functions and modules. He previously dabbled on his own, and ran into problems with disorganized code, so he really appreciates the ideas I'm presenting.

Have you looked at Keng-hao Chang's PhD thesis "Speech Analysis Methodologies towards Unobtrusive Mental Health Monitoring"? http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2012/EECS-2012-55.pdf His AMMON library might be of course to you, but I was thinking that reading a PhD in an area related to something you are currently working on might be illuminating.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Dennis Raddle wrote:

Hi Andrey and list,

All replies have been helpful. I realize my question is vague, and that's partly because I don't know what area within CS interests me. I may have to do at least an MS to find out.

I've been struggling with health problems for many years, so my work in programming has been part-time, minimal, and not very interesting to me. I'm not in a good position right now to determine what I would really like to do.

I can say that my favorite class in college was discrete mathematics. And I can say that I enjoyed learning Haskell, which I am in the process of teaching to myself for personal projects.

Oh yeah--I do have some personal projects. One of them is making animated videos to teach algebra, which I am doing in Haskell.

And I can say that I enjoy teaching a lot. Maybe I should become a high school teacher!

Right now I have a small gig teaching Python and numpy to a local psychiatrist who wants to write software for voice analysis. He is a smart guy, but of course we are starting at the beginning. It's quite pleasureful to see things click in his brain. We are working on just basic ideas, like organization of code into functions and modules. He previously dabbled on his own, and ran into problems with disorganized code, so he really appreciates the ideas I'm presenting.

I can think of a few potentially relevant points: - The only reason to do a PhD is because you want to learn how to do research on a very specific problem. - Being unsure of what you want to do is usually at odds with finishing your PhD. Doing a PhD --- at some level --- means allowing yourself to focus on a specific problem and not feel too tempted by other areas. - A PhD isn't really about learning, it's more about doing. - Lots of people start PhD programs because they were passionate about learning (or are the kind of people that romanticize it) as undergrads, or feel generally upset with the daily grind of work in industry, hoping that doing a PhD will change this. Doing a PhD still involves a huge amount of "the daily grind," but is nonetheless rewarding in ways that industry may not be. - MS programs can cost quite a bit of money, which is something to keep in mind: since I doubt you want to sink thousands of dollars in something that may be ultimately unnecessary. Some schools fun MS students through TA positions, but you'll have to ask. - Getting in to PhD programs can be quite difficult, especially for nonstandard applicants (e.g., without a BS in CS from a strong undergrad school with a great GPA and high test scores). This is not to say it's in any way impossible. If you're a nonstandard applicant and love doing research, you should look for great *people* to work with at schools outside of the top ~50. Rankings say very little about the quality of the faculty, but say a great deal about admissions difficulty. - If you ultimately want a PhD, getting an MS is unnecessary (at Maryland most people with MS degrees only have them because they worked in industry for a while). However, if you don't have a traditional CS background, it may be a good way to qualify yourself for PhD programs and make connections with faculty members. Overall, I think it's unwise to strongly consider PhD programs without a solid lead on your research area. Doing a PhD is a big thing, and all about research. In practice, the people that I know that do best at their PhDs don't get them because they want PhDs, it's more like "well, I really loved topic X, and it turns out if you do X long enough, and publish in obscure journals advancing the state of X, they eventually give you a PhD, because that incremental delta to human knowledge is called research." If you like teaching, but not research, it might be better to get an MS for *breadth* in CS, and then look at teaching opportunities. I agree with Dennis, however, looking to help people out may provide some insight. Then again, jumping in to an active research can be very difficult, and faculty may be hesitant to accept help from outside their department for a variety of logistical purposes (faculty typically have very little free time). However, most faculty organize some sort of reading group or seminar in their area. These are typically more open to outsiders. The best way to find out is to find faculty near you, download some of their most recent papers, and see if you can understand any. If you find some that look interesting, you can acquire more background knowledge by reading in the area (e.g., Types and Programming Languages, Software Foundations, and Certified Programming with Dependent Types, would be texts for PL). Then you might contact the faculty members and ask if they sponsored any open seminars for you to attend. Kris

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Dennis Raddle wrote:

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 7:47 PM, Kristopher Micinski < krismicinski@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I can think of a few potentially relevant points: - The only reason to do a PhD is because you want to learn how to do research on a very specific problem.

Thanks, Kristopher, you really made sense. What I hear you saying is that you get a PhD to do research on a problem that fascinates you. You shouldn't get a PhD if you are only doing it for what happens afterward.

Are there any MOOCs on reasoning about software correctness? I just remembered that I've always enjoy proving my programs correct (with the limited resources I had) but I don't know anything formal about this. This also seems like a practical topic... seeing how much of the vital world is run by software.

I don't know of any MOOCs, but there are lots of resources to learn such things. I mentioned a few of them in my last post, but learning about program verification / certified program development is a fairly huge and well researched area. The "Software Foundations" book is very helpful.

In the meantime I still have a lot of free time so I think I'm going to get out my calculus and discrete math books and start reviewing. Then I'll look over courses normally required for the BS and make sure I'm solid on them. Along the way I hope to run into a topic I like. I'll look up the local professors and see if they are looking for assistants, or even just volunteer tutoring.

You might try looking at their projects. They are very unlikely to be looking for tutors, since few tenure track faculty at research universities need tutors for their classes (they already have TAs). There might not be any local profs doing software verification/correctness

proofs so maybe I could find someone out of the area who would be open to a phone call and working by email.

I would also look into open source projects. Not to be too much of a dream killer, but professors are unlikely to want to work with a non grad student at their university, simply because of a lack of free time and accessibility to you personally. (At the very least, this seems like something that most faculty I know would be hesitant to do because it's not at all in their best interests...) Kris