| (mild) culture shock here. It is typical for people in the Haskell | community to view things in a rather principled way. A language | tutorial is supposed to introduce /the language/. If you want to know | how to compile or execute a Haskell program, well then, look at the | appropriate tutorial on the /implementation/. At first this may appear | like deliberately creating hurdles, but it isn't, it's merely the way | many (though not all) Haskell people tend to think. They take it for | granted that a new user is at least educated enough to be aware of the | difference between the language itself, and its concrete implementation | in the form of an interpretation or a compilation system. I, for one, don't take it for granted! Furthermore, I think the Haskell community is pretty friendly; for example, a great deal of entirely non-condescending advice is given to newcomers on Haskell Café. I'm certain there are hurdles, but I think on the whole they are there by accident rather than design. (Apart from functional programming itself, which often is a bit of a hurdle, but that's the reason we are here!) It turns out that there are a couple of introductory Wiki pages already: http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellNewbie http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellDemo It'd be great if someone would like to improve them in the light of this thread. (Anyone can do this.) Ideally there should be a single Wiki page that the Haskell.org web site can point to; perhaps the editing could bear that in mind? Simon
Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:
I'm certain there are hurdles, but I think on the whole they are there by accident rather than design.
Why certainly. I have never seen any on-line community that had hurdles by design. Hurdles are usually due to the fact that the people who design the website/community/whatever already know how everything works. As an example, I also participate in the OpenOffice.org community. The website is *impossible* to use. To be able to get anywhere you need to already have fairly in-depth knowledge of the structural organization of the project. Sure, the site makes perfect sense to those who designed it. That's because it's organized in a way that reflects the internal bureocracy, not the questions a visitor is likely to have in mind when he arrives.
It turns out that there are a couple of introductory Wiki pages already: http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellNewbie http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellDemo
Thanks!
It'd be great if someone would like to improve them in the light of this thread. (Anyone can do this.)
I'll take a look. I'm handy with documentation and usability (though not a trained expert in either). Cheers, Daniel -- /\/`) http://oooauthors.org /\/_/ http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ \/_/ I am not over-weight, I am under-tall. /
On Tuesday 20 December 2005 09:45, Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:
| (mild) culture shock here. It is typical for people in the Haskell | community to view things in a rather principled way. A language | tutorial is supposed to introduce /the language/. If you want to | know how to compile or execute a Haskell program, well then, look | at the appropriate tutorial on the /implementation/. At first this | may appear like deliberately creating hurdles, but it isn't, it's | merely the way many (though not all) Haskell people tend to think. | They take it for granted that a new user is at least educated | enough to be aware of the difference between the language itself, | and its concrete implementation in the form of an interpretation or | a compilation system.
I, for one, don't take it for granted! Furthermore, I think the Haskell community is pretty friendly; for example, a great deal of entirely non-condescending advice is given to newcomers on Haskell Café. I'm certain there are hurdles, but I think on the whole they are there by accident rather than design.
After reading again what I wrote above I see that it could be misunderstood. I was not talking about arrogance or any other form of unfriendlyness. I was merely formulating a theory for the reasons some of those hurdles are there in the first place (and occasionally get defended by some). What I meant was that a certain mindset (that I, in principle, share and value) leads to a culture where the primary values somewhat differ from the mainstream, thereby sometimes creating hurdles for newcomers, particularly newcomers without a strong academic background. Cheers Ben
Benjamin Franksen wrote:
What I meant was that a certain mindset (that I, in principle, share and value) leads to a culture where the primary values somewhat differ from the mainstream, thereby sometimes creating hurdles for newcomers, particularly newcomers without a strong academic background.
And even newcomers *with* a strong academic background. I am a mathematecian. I find Haskell attractive because it expresses problems in the way I would naturally formulate them. But I still expect a beginner tutorial to have enough info to get a basic program runing. To me that seems very logical. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://oooauthors.org /\/_/ http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ \/_/ I am not over-weight, I am under-tall. /
participants (3)
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Benjamin Franksen -
Daniel Carrera -
Simon Peyton-Jones