forwarded message on the importance of libraries

Garry Hodgson writes:
"Isaac Jones"
Haskell' will be a conservative refinement of Haskell 98. It will be the work of this committee to adopt a set of language extensions and modifications and to standardize *a new set of libraries.* [emphasis mine]
excellent. just please please please don't give short shrift to the libraries, as this is what will make or break any effort to make haskell more useful to the development community at large. have a look at the set of libraries that come with python to get an idea of a useful starting point. i recognize that libs are not academically sexy, and that this would require a great amount of resources. but starting with the notion that haskell should have an equivalent set, and then giving ground where necessary, would be far better than assuming a minimal set that users will augment. because they won't. they'll just use python.
This standard will reflect the realities of developing practical applications in the Haskell language.
excellent. play close attention to the "out of the box" experience. if i can install it, run the examples, maybe have some useful command among them, i'm far more likely to invest the effort to go further. make sure it plays well with others. if i can write code that i can use alongside my other code in other languages, integrate into my build system, and distribute in running form without requiring handstands from my users, i'm far more likely to use it for actual work. there's a threshold of effort required to adopt any new language. the lower you can make that threshold, the more people will take that first step. note: please don't anyone take this as a python flame, or an invitation to start one. i love python. i love haskell. i use python on a daily basis because i can get stuff done with it. ---- Garry Hodgson, Technical Consultant, AT&T Labs

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Isaac Jones wrote:
Garry Hodgson writes:
"Isaac Jones"
wrote: Haskell' will be a conservative refinement of Haskell 98. It will be the work of this committee to adopt a set of language extensions and modifications and to standardize *a new set of libraries.* [emphasis mine]
excellent. just please please please don't give short shrift to the libraries, as this is what will make or break any effort to make haskell more useful to the development community at large.
I entirely agree that Haskell in general needs a large set of libraries. However, whether it should have a large set of *standardised* libraries is more questionable. In particular, standardised libraries can't be changed very easily. What's the general feeling on this? The only mention of this issue on trac seems to be "define criteria for including libraries", so I guess noone is quite sure yet :-)
excellent. play close attention to the "out of the box" experience. if i can install it, run the examples, maybe have some useful command among them, i'm far more likely to invest the effort to go further.
We can have a large set of libraries distributed with every implementation without having those be fixed into the standard, though.
there's a threshold of effort required to adopt any new language. the lower you can make that threshold, the more people will take that first step.
Entirely agreed. Cheers, Ganesh

Hi--
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Isaac Jones wrote:
Garry Hodgson writes:
"Isaac Jones"
wrote: Haskell' will be a conservative refinement of Haskell 98. It will be the work of this committee to adopt a set of language extensions and modifications and to standardize *a new set of libraries.* [emphasis mine]
excellent. just please please please don't give short shrift to the libraries, as this is what will make or break any effort to make haskell more useful to the development community at large.
I entirely agree that Haskell in general needs a large set of libraries.
Yes! What libraries do people want that haven't been done? I wouldn't mind doing some boring coding tasks in Haskell to pass the time.
However, whether it should have a large set of *standardised* libraries is more questionable. In particular, standardised libraries can't be changed very easily.
What's the general feeling on this? The only mention of this issue on trac seems to be "define criteria for including libraries", so I guess noone is quite sure yet :-)
Is Haskell' going to standardize on Cabal (or even HackageDB)? Maybe for later, but it might be worth considering how that interacts with any kind of standardized library, since you'd get versioned dependencies (consistency) for free. I don't mean to suggest that it's a good idea, however, or an idea at all -- just a thought.
excellent. play close attention to the "out of the box" experience. if i can install it, run the examples, maybe have some useful command among them, i'm far more likely to invest the effort to go further.
We can have a large set of libraries distributed with every implementation without having those be fixed into the standard, though.
HackageDB will definitely take some of the pressure off implementations in this respect.
participants (3)
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Ganesh Sittampalam
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Isaac Jones
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Sam Goldman