Re: [HF-discuss] [Haskell-cafe] Do something about Cabal? Not yet!

I agree with Richard, but would like to caution that doing something about our build tools is, while very important, also very risky, if history is to serve as a lesson. I think I would prefer to see the Haskell Foundation "warm up" on some easier battles to build consensus and gain momentum before wading into these treacherous waters. John On 12/10/20 2:50 PM, Richard Eisenberg via hf-discuss wrote:

In my view, a lack of communication like the one highlighted here is exactly what the Haskell Foundation hopes to improve. It's still being bootstrapped, so don't expect any action soon, but I would hope for forward motion by the springtime.

Of course, the HF needs all of us to be the best foundation it can -- so please consider nominating yourself for a board position (https://haskell.foundation/board-nominations/ https://haskell.foundation/board-nominations/) and/or applying for the executive director (full-time, salaried) position (https://haskell.foundation/ed-job-description/ https://haskell.foundation/ed-job-description/)! In either role, you could have direct impact on moving this all forward.

Richard

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On Dec 10, 2020, at 6:42 AM, Allen Sobot via hf-discuss mailto:hf-discuss@haskell.org> wrote:

As a still (very) new Haskell user by many measures, indeed the little experience I had with Cabal isn't great overall in my view (honestly not a fan of Stack grabbing separate GHC instances though either unless I pass like 2 command-line flags, if there's a configuration option I'm not aware of I'd be grateful).

I had no clue about the communication issues etc. plaguing Cabal, that explains a bit...

In any case I'd like to try to contribute what I can to this effort, mainly to improve the UX which I agree is absolutely terrible in my humble opinion.

(Side note: I was informed on another mailing list that I may have some setting pertaining to forcing some kind of read receipt which is considered impolite on mailing lists, if this is still the case I apologize and I'm trying to determine what even is the precise issue or setting controlling it, at least on K-9 Mail and Neomutt)

On December 10, 2020 12:23:42 p.m. GMT+01:00, Ignat Insarov mailto:kindaro@gmail.com> wrote:

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# Do something about Cabal?

Hello.

Cabal is the second most used tool in Haskell after GHC. It has many problems. It may be noticed that there is one and a half developers working on it. This is clearly not enough to address these problems. I propose that this is a good place to invest in.

### Problems I have in mind:

* Poor communication, lack of open source development process.

The whole Cabal–Stack schism appears to be an outcome of poor communication. One of the leading developers of Cabal is even banned from participation somewhere in Stack circles.[1] Personally, I reported several issues to Cabal and every single time it resulted in sadness. Observe a vicious circle: core developers are overworked ⇒ they are being unfriendly ⇒ there are fewer contributors ⇒ core developers are overworked.

I have no hard evidence but it appears that presently, more people that strive to improve the Haskell build experience are outside the Cabal cabal than are inside.

* User experience is an afterthought.

Cabal's user experience is horrifying. A collection of complaints is being compiled elsewhere.[2] There are also bugs being opened to Cabal because of this, requiring triage and therefore wasting the precious time of the few overworked developers. Stack is much more friendly — this shows by example that the user experience problem is not inherent and may be solved.

It is ordinary to receive output like this:

``` % cabal run example-executable Warning: The package list for 'hackage.haskell.org http://hackage.haskell.org' is 84 days old. Run 'cabal update' to get the latest list of available packages. Resolving dependencies... cabal: Could not resolve dependencies: [__0] trying: example-0.1.0.6 (user goal) [__1] next goal: opaleye (dependency of example) [__1] rejecting: opaleye-0.7.1.0, opaleye-0.7.0.0 (constraint from project config TODO requires ==0.6.7006.1) [__1] rejecting: opaleye-0.6.7006.1 (conflict: example => opaleye^>=0.7) [__1] skipping: opaleye-0.6.7006.0, opaleye-0.6.7005.0, opaleye-0.6.7004.2, opaleye-0.6.7004.1, opaleye-0.6.7004.0, opaleye-0.6.7003.1, opaleye-0.6.7003.0, opaleye-0.6.1.0, opaleye-0.6.0.0, opaleye-0.5.4.0, opaleye-0.5.3.1, opaleye-0.5.3.0, opaleye-0.5.2.2, opaleye-0.5.2.0, opaleye-0.5.1.1, opaleye-0.5.1.0, opaleye-0.5.0.0, opaleye-0.4.2.0, opaleye-0.4.1.0, opaleye-0.4.0.0, opaleye-0.3.1.2, opaleye-0.3.1, opaleye-0.3, opaleye-0.2, opaleye-0.6.7002.0, opaleye-0.6.7001.0, opaleye-0.6.7000.0, opaleye-0.5.2.1, opaleye-0.3.1.1 (has the same characteristics that caused the previous version to fail: excluded by constraint '^>=0.7' from example) [__1] fail (backjumping, conflict set: example, opaleye) After searching the rest of the dependency tree exhaustively, these were the goals I've had most trouble fulfilling: opaleye, example ```

There are so many things that are wrong here. Even a sneaky _«to do»_ remark. If you wonder, in this case the solution is to remove and re-generate `cabal.project.freeze`.

Even the name of the program — it is actually _«cabal-install»_ — is incomprehensible, it should be re-branded to Cabal, which is how everyone calls it anyway.

* Features are not being introduced.

There is no reason for two build tools to exist. The killer feature of Stack — snapshots — should be supported by Cabal. Possibly Cabal itself should be refactored and split so that there are separate tools for packaging, version resolution and human interaction — I do not know. But certainly the way things are presently is a waste of developer effort and a source of confusion for everyone.

### My proposition, in particular.

* Ask all the people that show compassion to the cause of a great Haskell build tool to unite and work together on a better Cabal. This includes the developers of Stack and everyone that expressed unhappiness with the current state of Cabal. These people should be seen as a blessing, not as an obstacle. * Put in place a clear process for contributing and decision making, so that it does not come down to the privileged opinion of one of the core developers. * Make a model of user experience that Cabal should conform to, and make conformance a priority. Surely there are among us people that know a thing or two about user experience — call for them to step forward. Every issue that stems from misunderstanding, re-assign to the model instead of closing. * Merge the support of Stackage snapshots into Cabal. Ask the core developers of Stack to join the effort. Transition from Stack to Cabal should be one well discoverable command that just works.

I realize that this letter is largely an opinion piece. You can also see it as an _«ideal piece»_. Without an ideal, without a vision, we are stuck with the present. I do not insist that my vision is the best. But the present reality is not the best vision either. I propose, foremost, that we work and fight for a better future.

[1]: https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stackage/issues/4472 https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stackage/issues/4472 [2]: https://github.com/tomjaguarpaw/tilapia/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+cabal https://github.com/tomjaguarpaw/tilapia/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+cabal _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to: http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.

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