David, The most likely thing is that some setting is wrong in the build. HaskellDraw is very old indeed, and the Xcode project will - at a minimum - require to be told to build using the 4.2 SDK. Now - it looks like you are doing that, but check all the settings related to that. Now, on the version of Xcode I used, every single SDK version other than the latest did not work at all. When I say "at all", I mean nothing about it worked. So, Xcode is very fussy - or perhaps a better term for it might be "buggy". You will need to fiddle. The second most likely thing is that a new version of Xcode has broken something new. I have not seen this particular error, as far as I remember. You could try building from source. Then, at least, the GHC-iPhone stuff and the Xcode you're using will be the same version. I am about to start working on porting ghc-7.0 or 7.2 to iPhone, so if I possibly can, I will try very hard to avoid having to diagnose problems on the old version. Steve On 07/06/11 12:39, David Pollak wrote:

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Stephen Blackheath [to GHC-iPhone] mailto:likeliest.complexions.stephen@blacksapphire.com> wrote:

David,

ghc-iphone doesn't use your native GHC for its own compiling, so you can use any version you like. However, if you want to install GHC-iPhone from source, you will need to use ghc-6.10.4.

The source code is in the form of patches, which can be found in the patch.snowleopard directory at

http://projects.haskell.org/ghc-iphone/downloads/

Read the README file and GHC-iPhone.pdf and you should have (almost) enough information to build from source.

Thanks.

I am using the binary distribution with the draw example and get the following errors (and then some): build-iphone-haskell.sh running with ACTION= and PLATFORM_NAME=iphonesimulator

Warning: Error parsing config file /Users/dpp/.cabal/config:77:

Parse of field 'libsubdir' failed (paths with spaces must use Haskell String

syntax):

Warning: Using default configuration.

Resolving dependencies...

Configuring HaskellDraw-0.1...

Preprocessing executables for HaskellDraw-0.1...

Building HaskellDraw-0.1...

In file included from /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/Headers/CFBase.h:42,

from /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/Headers/CoreFoundation.h:38,

from /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Headers/Foundation.h:6,

from /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/UIKit.framework/Headers/UIAccelerometer.h:9,

from /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/UIKit.framework/Headers/UIKit.h:9,

from MainWindow.m:1:0:

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:51:0:

error: expected specifier-qualifier-list before 'StgPtr'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:108:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'bdescr'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:163:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:174:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:187:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:198:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:219:0:

error: expected ')' before 'n'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:223:0:

error: expected ')' before 'n'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:235:0:

error: expected declaration specifiers or '...' before 'nat'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:241:0:

Any idea of what I'm doing wrong?

Steve

On 07/06/11 10:53, David Pollak wrote:

Howdy,

I'm running GHC 7.0.2 on OS X Snow Leopard (64 bit)

Is it possible to get ghc-iphone to work with GHC 7?

Also, is there a source repository for the ghc-iphone code?

Sorry for the dumb/newbie questions. It's the first week in a new environment (Haskell) and I'm feeling my way around and bumping my head a lot.

Thanks,

David

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org mailto:iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org mailto:iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

Hi David, You just need to delete the C-Source section un your cabal file and it will compile well. -- Ernesto 2011/6/6 Mark Wotton

+1 to looking forward to Stephen porting GHC 7. on the sidelines with pom-poms, mate. :)

mark

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Stephen Blackheath [to GHC-iPhone] < likeliest.complexions.stephen@blacksapphire.com> wrote:

...

David,

The most likely thing is that some setting is wrong in the build. HaskellDraw is very old indeed, and the Xcode project will - at a minimum - require to be told to build using the 4.2 SDK. Now - it looks like you are doing that, but check all the settings related to that.

Now, on the version of Xcode I used, every single SDK version other than the latest did not work at all. When I say "at all", I mean nothing about it worked. So, Xcode is very fussy - or perhaps a better term for it might be "buggy". You will need to fiddle.

The second most likely thing is that a new version of Xcode has broken something new.

I have not seen this particular error, as far as I remember.

You could try building from source. Then, at least, the GHC-iPhone stuff and the Xcode you're using will be the same version.

I am about to start working on porting ghc-7.0 or 7.2 to iPhone, so if I possibly can, I will try very hard to avoid having to diagnose problems on the old version.

Steve

On 07/06/11 12:39, David Pollak wrote:

...

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Stephen Blackheath [to GHC-iPhone] mailto:likeliest.complexions.stephen@blacksapphire.com> wrote:

David,

ghc-iphone doesn't use your native GHC for its own compiling, so you can use any version you like. However, if you want to install GHC-iPhone from source, you will need to use ghc-6.10.4.

The source code is in the form of patches, which can be found in the patch.snowleopard directory at

http://projects.haskell.org/ghc-iphone/downloads/

Read the README file and GHC-iPhone.pdf and you should have (almost) enough information to build from source.

Thanks.

I am using the binary distribution with the draw example and get the following errors (and then some): build-iphone-haskell.sh running with ACTION= and PLATFORM_NAME=iphonesimulator

Warning: Error parsing config file /Users/dpp/.cabal/config:77:

Parse of field 'libsubdir' failed (paths with spaces must use Haskell String

syntax):

Warning: Using default configuration.

Resolving dependencies...

Configuring HaskellDraw-0.1...

Preprocessing executables for HaskellDraw-0.1...

Building HaskellDraw-0.1...

In file included from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/Headers/CFBase.h:42,

from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/Headers/CoreFoundation.h:38,

from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Headers/Foundation.h:6,

from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/UIKit.framework/Headers/UIAccelerometer.h:9,

from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/UIKit.framework/Headers/UIKit.h:9,

from MainWindow.m:1:0:

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:51:0:

error: expected specifier-qualifier-list before 'StgPtr'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:108:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'bdescr'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:163:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:174:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:187:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:198:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:219:0:

error: expected ')' before 'n'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:223:0:

error: expected ')' before 'n'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:235:0:

error: expected declaration specifiers or '...' before 'nat'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:241:0:

Any idea of what I'm doing wrong?

Steve

On 07/06/11 10:53, David Pollak wrote:

Howdy,

I'm running GHC 7.0.2 on OS X Snow Leopard (64 bit)

Is it possible to get ghc-iphone to work with GHC 7?

Also, is there a source repository for the ghc-iphone code?

Sorry for the dumb/newbie questions. It's the first week in a new environment (Haskell) and I'm feeling my way around and bumping my head a lot.

Thanks,

David

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org mailto:iPhone@haskell.org

http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org mailto:iPhone@haskell.org

http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

-- A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent of a black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who. -- Chris Maeda

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

-- Ernesto M. Carrión

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Stephen Blackheath [to GHC-iPhone] < likeliest.complexions.stephen@blacksapphire.com> wrote:

David,

The most likely thing is that some setting is wrong in the build. HaskellDraw is very old indeed, and the Xcode project will - at a minimum - require to be told to build using the 4.2 SDK. Now - it looks like you are doing that, but check all the settings related to that.

Now, on the version of Xcode I used, every single SDK version other than the latest did not work at all. When I say "at all", I mean nothing about it worked. So, Xcode is very fussy - or perhaps a better term for it might be "buggy". You will need to fiddle.

The second most likely thing is that a new version of Xcode has broken something new.

I have not seen this particular error, as far as I remember.

You could try building from source. Then, at least, the GHC-iPhone stuff and the Xcode you're using will be the same version.

I am about to start working on porting ghc-7.0 or 7.2 to iPhone, so if I possibly can, I will try very hard to avoid having to diagnose problems on the old version.

Steve, I'm new to Haskell (but I was new to Scala when I wrote Lift), my Xcode skills are rusty by 18 years (I wrote some commercial NextStep software back in the day), but I'm a quick learner and would love to help in any way you might need... so feel encouraged to ask. I'm looking forward to using ghc-iphone to build some very cool stuff and want to help out the project and community in any way I can. Thanks, David

Steve

On 07/06/11 12:39, David Pollak wrote:

...

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Stephen Blackheath [to GHC-iPhone] mailto:likeliest.complexions.stephen@blacksapphire.com> wrote:

David,

ghc-iphone doesn't use your native GHC for its own compiling, so you can use any version you like. However, if you want to install GHC-iPhone from source, you will need to use ghc-6.10.4.

The source code is in the form of patches, which can be found in the patch.snowleopard directory at

http://projects.haskell.org/ghc-iphone/downloads/

Read the README file and GHC-iPhone.pdf and you should have (almost) enough information to build from source.

Thanks.

I am using the binary distribution with the draw example and get the following errors (and then some): build-iphone-haskell.sh running with ACTION= and PLATFORM_NAME=iphonesimulator

Warning: Error parsing config file /Users/dpp/.cabal/config:77:

Parse of field 'libsubdir' failed (paths with spaces must use Haskell String

syntax):

Warning: Using default configuration.

Resolving dependencies...

Configuring HaskellDraw-0.1...

Preprocessing executables for HaskellDraw-0.1...

Building HaskellDraw-0.1...

In file included from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/Headers/CFBase.h:42,

from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/Headers/CoreFoundation.h:38,

from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Headers/Foundation.h:6,

from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/UIKit.framework/Headers/UIAccelerometer.h:9,

from

/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/SDKs/iPhoneSimulator4.2.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/UIKit.framework/Headers/UIKit.h:9,

from MainWindow.m:1:0:

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:51:0:

error: expected specifier-qualifier-list before 'StgPtr'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:108:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'bdescr'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:163:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:174:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:187:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:198:0:

error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before 'void'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:219:0:

error: expected ')' before 'n'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:223:0:

error: expected ')' before 'n'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:235:0:

error: expected declaration specifiers or '...' before 'nat'

/opt/iphone/lib/ghc-6.10.4-iphone-simulator/include/Block.h:241:0:

Any idea of what I'm doing wrong?

Steve

On 07/06/11 10:53, David Pollak wrote:

Howdy,

I'm running GHC 7.0.2 on OS X Snow Leopard (64 bit)

Is it possible to get ghc-iphone to work with GHC 7?

Also, is there a source repository for the ghc-iphone code?

Sorry for the dumb/newbie questions. It's the first week in a new environment (Haskell) and I'm feeling my way around and bumping my head a lot.

Thanks,

David

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org mailto:iPhone@haskell.org

http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org mailto:iPhone@haskell.org

http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Stephen Blackheath [to GHC-iPhone] < likeliest.complexions.stephen@blacksapphire.com> wrote:

David,

That is great, and, especially, welcome to Haskell! As I said, I am working on a new version of GHC for iPhone. There probably isn't much sense in involving you in that at this point. I'll get you to test for me when I have something working.

I can't think of anything obvious for you to do now, but I'll keep it in the back of my mind. Haskell bindings to iPhone infrastructure are lacking, so maybe you could look at that.

Cool. I'm currently working on taking http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours and making it an iPad app. ;-) Hopefully I'll be done tomorrow and be able to share it. I'm noodling with how to generically express Obj-C method invocations in Haskell in a way that would allow for automatic binding/ffi generation via Obj-C header files. I'm not sure it's possible, but it'd certainly reduce the amount of boilerplate (it's also been a long time since I've done low level Obj-C dispatch snooping... I wonder what's changed. ;-) ) I'm also thinking about how to use Haskell's GC to do automatic retain/release calls... Anyway... more as I make progress.

Steve

On 07/06/11 16:06, David Pollak wrote:

...

I'm new to Haskell (but I was new to Scala when I wrote Lift), my Xcode skills are rusty by 18 years (I wrote some commercial NextStep software back in the day), but I'm a quick learner and would love to help in any way you might need... so feel encouraged to ask.

I'm looking forward to using ghc-iphone to build some very cool stuff and want to help out the project and community in any way I can.

Thanks,

David

_______________________________________________ iPhone mailing list iPhone@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/iphone

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mark Wotton wrote:

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 10:15 AM, David Pollak < feeder.of.the.bears@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Stephen Blackheath [to GHC-iPhone] < likeliest.complexions.stephen@blacksapphire.com> wrote:

...

David,

That is great, and, especially, welcome to Haskell! As I said, I am working on a new version of GHC for iPhone. There probably isn't much sense in involving you in that at this point. I'll get you to test for me when I have something working.

I can't think of anything obvious for you to do now, but I'll keep it in the back of my mind. Haskell bindings to iPhone infrastructure are lacking, so maybe you could look at that.

Cool.

I'm currently working on taking http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours and making it an iPad app. ;-) Hopefully I'll be done tomorrow and be able to share it.

I'm noodling with how to generically express Obj-C method invocations in Haskell in a way that would allow for automatic binding/ffi generation via Obj-C header files. I'm not sure it's possible, but it'd certainly reduce the amount of boilerplate (it's also been a long time since I've done low level Obj-C dispatch snooping... I wonder what's changed. ;-) )

I'm also thinking about how to use Haskell's GC to do automatic retain/release calls...

Anyway... more as I make progress.

I think it's bitrotted a bit, but http://code.google.com/p/hoc/ was a bridge that worked at one time with haskell and obj-c. might be worth mining for ideas, at least.

Coolness. I started looking at the code this morning. Lemme see what I can do to get it ported to run under GHC 7 and output stuff that's compatible with ghc-iphone.

What model are you thinking of?

Ideally, I'd like to do as much coding in Haskell as possible. Even when I wrote Mesa (http://www.plsys.co.uk/mesa.htm ) back in the day, I used as much C++ (of the then-available Objective-C++) as I could for type safety and performance. I used the Objective-C stuff for UI and for external APIs (to avoid the C++ fragility). Going back to Obj-C and seeing how it has not progressed materially since 1994 when I last spent time with it makes me want to use it even less (wow... this is turning into a full-blown rant against Obj-C... sorry for offending the Obj-C lovers in the audience.) So, my goal is to have as much of my code as possible in Haskell with very thin layers for bridging to IB.

Importing haskell code into an obj-c project, or running everything from haskell? If it's the first, my Hubris project may be interesting ( http://github.com/mwotton/hubris) - has a bit of code for automatically testing whether haskell expressions are exportable to ruby.

cheers mark

-- A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent of a black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who. -- Chris Maeda

-- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Simply Lift http://simply.liftweb.net Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Blog: http://goodstuff.im

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 12:14 AM, David Pollak

wrote:

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mark Wotton wrote:

...

What model are you thinking of?

Ideally, I'd like to do as much coding in Haskell as possible. Even when I wrote Mesa (http://www.plsys.co.uk/mesa.htm ) back in the day, I used as much C++ (of the then-available Objective-C++) as I could for type safety and performance. I used the Objective-C stuff for UI and for external APIs (to avoid the C++ fragility). Going back to Obj-C and seeing how it has not progressed materially since 1994 when I last spent time with it makes me want to use it even less (wow... this is turning into a full-blown rant against Obj-C... sorry for offending the Obj-C lovers in the audience.) So, my goal is to have as much of my code as possible in Haskell with very thin layers for bridging to IB.

Sure, that's a given, but are you thinking of a thin obj-c skin for the GUI code calling haskell to do the heavy lifting, or of having haskell know the intimate details of the cocoa apis and managing window composition etc itself? merits to both, i guess. in my highly uneducated opinion, i think HOC might have tried to do too much - it had a lot of interesting stuff in there but was usually a bear to get working. mark -- A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent of a black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who. -- Chris Maeda