Re: Civility notes (was "Traversable instances for (,,) a b")

It's your fault if you didn't get the joke"

This never happened.

Ideal would be a quick "Sorry!"

This did. On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 4:18 AM, Tom Murphy wrote:

Hi Fumiaki!

I agree with you that some poorly-chosen words by a few people have soured this conversation, but please don't let that turn you completely off of the productive conversation most of us are attempting to have! I think it's largely been successful, too: even if many of us haven't changed our -1/+1 votes, I for one have had my ideas challenged and have a more nuanced view than before talking with everyone here. Henning and Edward are two examples (one from each side of the +1/-1 chasm) who have been aided by this discussion, in making important progress to finding a middle ground (each in the form of proposed compiler changes).

To the rest of us: Fumiaki regretting having posted here is a pretty stark example of why speaking politely matters. People being scared away and feeling unwelcome is a real phenomenon, and we need to do our part to fix it. I'd propose:

- If you haven't read it already, SPJ recently wrote a heartfelt letter on the subject [0]. We've gotten better since then, but clearly we're not finished. - Civility is a norm, and norms sometimes need to be enforced. From a distance, we all look bad (and unwelcoming!) if anyone is hostile and we don't make it clear it's not acceptable. Speak up! That said, everyone makes mistakes - try to give people space to apologize and move on. - If someone says something insulting to you, please take that as a sign to become more polite, not less so. The downward spiral is real.

If you're called out for saying something regrettable (again, regardless of if you're +1 or -1 on this issue), *please* take our desire for civil conversation seriously. Responses like (I'm paraphrasing, and not trying to cite anyone specifically): "It was a joke (mostly)" and "It's your fault if you didn't get the joke" are worse than not writing anything at all. Ideal would be a quick "Sorry!"

Thanks, all! Tom

[0] https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2016-September/024995.html

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Fumiaki Kinoshita wrote:

...

The discussion has diverged to flaming due to a few offensive people. I guess I shouldn't have posted a proposal here, I should have submitted a patch instead.

2017-03-23 19:53 GMT+09:00 Fumiaki Kinoshita :

...

It's surprising that they are missing (forgive me, I'm not here to make people grumpy).

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