RE: System.Time.Clock Design Issues

From: Ketil Malde [mailto:ketil+haskell@ii.uib.no]
I don't think this is correct. In UTC, extra leap seconds are denoted 23:59:60 and the missing ones have :59:58 as the last second. Posix's seconds are thus not isomorphic to UTC.
Ahh, yes, sorry: http://cr.yp.to/proto/utctai.html http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/systime.html http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/pubs/bulletin/leapsecond.htm I should read more... So UTC and UT1 seem to be more-or-less equivalent, in that they both include leap seconds. UT1 measures the actual earth day (so I assume it has some fractional component for seconds), while UTC (which I assume counts integral seconds) tracks UT1 with an error of +/-0.9s. UTC "differs from TAI by an integral number of seconds". TAI ignores leap seconds, but does track time accurately by always ticking (i.e. not slowing down at a leap second). There are exactly 86400 seconds in a TAI day, so the day will drift w.r.t. the earth's actual day, whereas UTC tracks the actual day accurately by inserting leap seconds. So the TAI day isn't very useful. POSIX is "idealised" time, where days are always 23:59:59, and a second sometimes takes two seconds. Alistair. ----------------------------------------- ***************************************************************** Confidentiality Note: The information contained in this message, and any attachments, may contain confidential and/or privileged material. It is intended solely for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. *****************************************************************

In article
<7DFF3BC6CA957441AEADA7F340BFAA340A029337@GBLONEX11.lon.invesco.com>,
"Bayley, Alistair"
I should read more...
My original message has a lot of background: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2005-January/002908.html
So UTC and UT1 seem to be more-or-less equivalent, in that they both include leap seconds.
Well, they don't drift apart if that's what you mean. There are no leap seconds in UT1, instead UT1 seconds are of variable length.
UT1 measures the actual earth day
Yes, with some corrections to even it out.
(so I assume it has some fractional component for seconds),
No, the UT1 day is divided into exactly 86400 UT1 seconds. The length of these seconds varies, just as the length of the UT1 day varies. Although you're right if you mean the count of seconds is continuous rather than discrete.
while UTC (which I assume counts integral seconds) tracks UT1 with an error of +/-0.9s. UTC "differs from TAI by an integral number of seconds".
Yes. UTC days are always an integer number of seconds. Most are 86400, some are 86401, and some could potentially be 86399.
TAI ignores leap seconds, but does track time accurately by always ticking (i.e. not slowing down at a leap second). There are exactly 86400 seconds in a TAI day, so the day will drift w.r.t. the earth's actual day, whereas UTC tracks the actual day accurately by inserting leap seconds. So the TAI day isn't very useful.
Yes. Instead it's better to consider TAI as a count of seconds.
POSIX is "idealised" time, where days are always 23:59:59, and a second sometimes takes two seconds.
Yes. POSIX is an encoding of UTC, but broken in this way, because it is a count of SI seconds that assumes 86400 to the day to make calculation easier. -- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA

Ashley Yakeley
So UTC and UT1 seem to be more-or-less equivalent, in that they both include leap seconds.
Well, they don't drift apart if that's what you mean. There are no leap seconds in UT1, instead UT1 seconds are of variable length.
Isn't UTC prior to the epoch defined as UT1? I seem to remember reading this, but couldn't find the reference atm. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

In article <87vf9835x7.fsf@sefirot.ii.uib.no>,
Ketil Malde
Isn't UTC prior to the epoch defined as UT1? I seem to remember reading this, but couldn't find the reference atm.
I believe civil time prior to 1972 (which is more a date of establishing UTC than an epoch) was defined as UT1. It was called "Greenwich Mean Time" in those days. -- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA

On Feb 4, 2005, at 7:00 AM, Ashley Yakeley wrote:
In article <87vf9835x7.fsf@sefirot.ii.uib.no>, Ketil Malde
wrote: Isn't UTC prior to the epoch defined as UT1? I seem to remember reading this, but couldn't find the reference atm.
I believe civil time prior to 1972 (which is more a date of establishing UTC than an epoch) was defined as UT1. It was called "Greenwich Mean Time" in those days.
Actually, before 1972 civil time was complicated. "Greenwich Mean Time", referring to the timescale used in celestial navigation, was basically UT1. Civil time in the United States from the 1950s until the introduction of UTC was determined by the time signal distributed by the Master Clock at the US Naval Observatory, with frequent 20 millisecond adjustments (and a few 60 millisecond adjustments) to keep the civil timescale close to UT1. The time signal was broadcast by the radio station WWV. A table of these adjustments can be found in the revised edition of the Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac. In essence, civil time in the US before the introduction of UTC had seconds which were usually 1000 SI milliseconds long, some that were 1020 SI milliseconds and a few that were 1060 SI milliseconds. The Naval Observatory Master Clock kept a timescale that closely approximated what was to become TAI, i.e., it kept SI seconds and did not have a phase discontinuity when TAI was introduced in 1972. Best Wishes, Greg
-- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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In article <6c0017bff5beac04cf224af544c840b4@comcast.net>,
Gregory Wright
In essence, civil time in the US before the introduction of UTC had seconds which were usually 1000 SI milliseconds long, some that were 1020 SI milliseconds and a few that were 1060 SI milliseconds.
Did they ever have shorter seconds, 980 or 940ms? UT1 wobbles all over the place. -- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA

On Feb 4, 2005, at 8:34 PM, Ashley Yakeley wrote:
In article <6c0017bff5beac04cf224af544c840b4@comcast.net>, Gregory Wright
wrote: In essence, civil time in the US before the introduction of UTC had seconds which were usually 1000 SI milliseconds long, some that were 1020 SI milliseconds and a few that were 1060 SI milliseconds.
Did they ever have shorter seconds, 980 or 940ms? UT1 wobbles all over the place.
Yes, on five occasions shorter seconds were used to advance the timescale. These used seconds with lengths 940 ms, 950 ms, 900 ms and 999.8 ms (yes, a 200 microsecond advance). The retarded seconds had lengths of 1020 ms, 1005 ms, 1100 ms and 1001 ms. (There was no retarded second of 1060 ms as I mentioned in my last note; the 60 ms was a clock advancement and I added when I should have subtracted.) Before 1960 20 ms steps were common, happening almost every month. After 1960 until the adoption of UTC 100 ms steps were most common. (The objective was to keep broadcast time signals within 100 ms of UT2. This procedure was followed from 1962 until the introduction of the leap second scheme with UTC in 1972. More info in the Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac, section 2.57 et seq.) Greg
-- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA
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Hi, A useful reference on the history of UTC and its potential future: Dennis McCarthy's "Some Options for the Future Definition of UTC", available at: www.ien.it/luc/cesio/itu/mc_carthy.pdf In particular, it has a nice graph of the projected number of leap seconds over the next 50 years. Best Wishes, Greg
participants (4)
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Ashley Yakeley
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Bayley, Alistair
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Gregory Wright
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Ketil Malde