[web-devel] Re: ANN: Salvia-1.0.0

On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:59:24 +0100

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"Sebastiaan" == Sebastiaan Visser wrote:

Sebastiaan> How do I put this delicately? I do not think WAI is the way Sebastiaan> to go. OK. Sebastiaan> Secondly, this type of interface will degrade projects like Sebastiaan> Happstack and Salvia to be mere `back-ends', which they are Sebastiaan> not. I saw there is a recent thread in Happs mailing list entitled "experimental port of happstack-server to wai", and although I cannot comment on technical issues, it looks that they do not consider that Happs will become degraded? Sebastiaan> What I do like to see though, is something like the Ruby Sebastiaan> Rack interface, which calls itself a "a Ruby Webserver Sebastiaan> Interface". This is an interface between the actual Sebastiaan> OS/network and the application server, not an interface Sebastiaan> between an application server and the web application. Call Sebastiaan> it WSI not WAI, this subtle difference actually means a lot. Well, I'm not attached whether it is called WSI or WAI, just to see that the web-development market is not so fragmented, so that we can get some decent frameworks in order to make it easier to do web programming in Haskell. Sebastiaan> No unfortunately, there is currently only the examples and Sebastiaan> the haddock documentation. We are working on a tutorial, Sebastiaan> but that will have to wait for a while. Sorry for that. Heh, this is common scenario. :-) Sebastiaan> It can run on its own server (like Happs) or as CGI. What about FastCGI? Sebastiaan> Whether you can easily deploy it probably depends on your Sebastiaan> hosting party, not on Salvia. Well, I'm curious if one can deploy it on shared-hosting like e.g. Webfaction since not everyone can afford or like to admin VPS. Sebastiaan> It can run as CGI or behind existing apache proxies without Sebastiaan> any problem. The codebase has some experimental support for Sebastiaan> running Salvia itself as a proxy server, but this code is Sebastiaan> not released yet because it needs some additional Sebastiaan> coding/polish/testing. Good. I use Cherokee on webfaction - that's why I'm asking. Sebastiaan> No, this is a web server package not a database. Off course Sebastiaan> you can use it to build database backed web applications, Sebastiaan> using any datastore you like. The Salvia project will never Sebastiaan> have built-in support for any form of data storage, I Sebastiaan> prefer to keep these aspects totally separated. Ahh, I read announcement where it says that "Salvia is a feature rich web server and web application framework", so based on my experiences with e.g. Python frameworks, there is usually some kind of ORM support so that one can plug database easily. That's why I am expecting to see the easy way to e.g. use HDBC or something. Sebastiaan> I feel that Haskell is the true candidate for being the Sebastiaan> perfect web language, but we still have a long way to go. Heh, I've similar feeling...lot of potential, but (too) many different solutions. Sebastiaan> We should just keep on playing with new ideas and Sebastiaan> abstractions until we all see the big picture. Some Sebastiaan> standards will arise eventually. Well, I know some people who object about HP thinking that it is not good that some libs (from the same category) were preferred ove the others, but I still feel that having HP or Haskell's 'batteries included' is good stuff to consolidate things a bit and provide assurance there is some 'standard set' of libs playing nicely together and that it will be supported. That's why I fail to understand why joining the forces and trying to evolve some 'standard practice' for web development is considered pre-mature? Similarly to HP, nobody is forced to use it and there is always free choise to choose whatever is suitable for someone, but HP is appreciated by many who wants stable & supported development platform. Although I'd like that it does not happen, it seems there is (some) truth in words of John who wrote in another reply: "...i think it's a fine idea, but it won't be widely used until the haskell community actually goes through the sort of pain and suffering that forged the resolve to use WSGI in python. We have to learn that lesson the hard way." Until then, Ruby & Python will continue increasing their web 'share' - "Avoid success at all costs." :-D Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 ----------------------------------------------------------------