I won't argue with that sentiment: I think Yesod includes more features than Happstack or Snap, and therefore it will take more time to learn. For that matter, PHP has a lower learning curve than anything in Haskell. But I'm almost certain that on any decently sized project, all three of the above-mentioned Haskell frameworks give better productivity than PHP. Michael On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 10:25 PM, wrote:

Sorry, for double email. I hate my KMail.

I think by "freedom" people often mean "how fast can i be comfortable in the framework to start running around and do things." It is true that its much faster to start writing useful code in Snap than in Yesod. And that gives people the perception of freedom. Yesod requires substantial time investment. And even after that some of its parts are still behind the wall (persistence, widgets, subsites). Complex parts that are not documented.

I spent quite some time to pick up Yesod, and i am glad that i did. But looking back i realize that because i am not using many of the features of Yesod (persistence, widgets, subsites) i would probably get faster to the same place where i am with Snap and bolted in hamlet.

...

This probably isn't the right forum for expressing this thought, but here goes anyway:

What exactly is the freedom that Yesod takes away from you? I know this idea gets passed around a lot: Yesod isn't "really" Haskell, Yesod is its own language, etc. But all of that is really just talking about some sugar that Yesod puts in place for you: under the surface, it's just functions, data types and type classes. You can go ahead and write a complete Yesod application without using Template Haskell of QuasiQuotation.

So what's the restriction that Yesod has that Happstack/Snap don't? Yesod requires you to provide some datatypes. That's it. What's the purpose of the datatypes? Mostly, it's about type-safe URLs. I'm not exactly sure why the term "restriction" or "freedom" even applies here: Yesod has a *feature* that Happstack/Snap do not include out of the box.

Let me phrase this in a different way: "But I don't like Haskell, because the idea of Python in more interesting for me. Python gives you some freedom." I really do see this as the same argument. You can go ahead and right some code without static type checking in Python, and you might even write it faster than you would have in Haskell. But go ahead and start making changes, and unless you have some very good unit tests, you're in for a world of hurt. In Haskell, often times the compiler will save you from yourself.

The same is true in Yesod. I've refactored incredibly large codebases, with hundreds of different resource patterns, and *never* had to worry about 404s. Maybe some people consider that giving up freedom. I consider it giving up the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot.

Oh, and if you are absolutely dependent on the idea of getting rid of

On Tuesday, April 05, 2011 11:32:38 AM you wrote: this

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data-type requirements, and want all the freedom of dynamic routes, you can try out a 44 line module[1] that I mentioned recently[2].

OK, enough of this rant. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just tired of this notion that Yesod is a ball-and-chain around your ankles. People can have legitimate reasons to prefer Happstack or Snap to Yesod, I've never claimed that it was a perfect framework for everyone. I just don't think this is one of those legitimate reasons.

Michael

[1] https://gist.github.com/884802 https://gist.github.com/884802[2] http://osdir.com/ml/general/2011-04/msg02160.html

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Alexey G wrote:

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Hello. It's very interesting theme for me and I want to express my opinion. Yesod - very fast web-framework(

http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/preliminary-warp-cross-language-benchmarks).

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But I don't like Yesod, because idea of Happstack more interesting for me. Happstack gives to you some freedom.

I trying to use Snap Framework now. And it's very good for me. Try it http://snapframework.com/!

Sorry for my english.

2011/4/5 Ramy Abdel-Azim

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I already posted about this a little bit but i think i should let the old thread get back to it's regularly scheduled conversaion. on to my question:

So I know there are a million easier ways to createa blog (wordpress, django, drupal, etc. etc.) but which would you recommend I use to build a beginner website that is simliar to a blog: happstack or yesod? _Ramy

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