Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to help identify it more easily?

I agree. Since [Haskell-beginners] would take up about 20 characters, I suggest a shortened form: 1. [HS-beginners] 2. [HS-begin] 3. [HS-bgnr] 4. [HS-B] I think (3.) is a good balance between size and readability. John

I'll add my name to that petition. Though I would vote for [HS-begin]. Only one letter longer than option 3, and far more readable. On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:09 PM, John Dorsey wrote:

...

Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to help identify it more easily?

I agree. Since [Haskell-beginners] would take up about 20 characters, I suggest a shortened form:

1. [HS-beginners] 2. [HS-begin] 3. [HS-bgnr] 4. [HS-B]

I think (3.) is a good balance between size and readability.

John

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

How about [Haskell-begin]?

I don't mind it. Although, I've always wished the cafe used a shorter prefix. I read in a text window, with mutt, in 80 columns. My preferences, in order: [HS-bgnr] [HS-begin] [Haskell-begin] John

In response to the posts in this thread, I have modified the prefix for the subject line of list postings from a null string to "[Haskell-begin]." Personally, though, I prefer either a null string (my higher preference) or the opposite extreme, "[Haskell-beginners]," in line with the full naming of "[Haskell-cafe]." If any of you share either of these preferences, please voice your opinion on this forum, so that I can change the prefix. As an argument in favor changing the prefix to a null string, if you filter for "beginners@haskell.org" on the To/CC header, you can filter out all the messages for this mailing list without a prefix for the subject line of list postings. I.e., e.g., in Yahoo! Mail, first create a mail folder called "Haskell-Beginner Mailing List." Then, go to "Options" -> "Mail Options" -> "Filters," and add the following filter: Haskell-Beginners Mailing List If... To/CC contains "haskell-beginners@haskell.org" Then... Move message to Haskell-Beginners Mailing List folder This is how I filter out all my Haskell and Haskell-Cafe mailing list messages. This allows all applicable messages to be filtered without the need for a prefix for the subject line of list postings. Please post your opinion on this forum as to whether creating this kind of mail filter would be acceptable. If most people agree to this proposal, I will change the prefix back to a null string. Alternatively, if you feel that "[Haskell-beginners]," in line with "[Haskell-cafe]," is not too long, I can change it to that prefix. Just for reference, I did a search on mailing lists, and discovered that the "plt-announce" mailing list has a prefix of "[PLT announcement]," which is 16 characters long, only one character shorter than "[Haskell-beginners]." -- Benjamin L. Russell On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:51:05 +0100, Allan wrote:

I quite like that too, though I must admit I just filter on the 'sender' header.

regards allan

Chad Wilson wrote:

...

Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to help identify it more easily?

-w

My personal preference is the "no prefix" option. Like Benjamin, i filter on something other than the subject, though in my case it's the "List-Id" header, which all mailman and majordomo installs (and most other listserver implementations) provide by default. Of course, i'm one of those people who automatically sorts all listserver traffic into listserver-specific folders. It lets me compartmentalize list discussions, and postpone reading particular lists till i have time to catch up. All of that said, i don't really have a vested interest in this. Since i'm filtering by something other than subject line, i'm fine with whatever the subject line ends up being. -johnnnnnn On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:27 PM, Benjamin L.Russell wrote:

In response to the posts in this thread, I have modified the prefix for the subject line of list postings from a null string to "[Haskell-begin]."

Personally, though, I prefer either a null string (my higher preference) or the opposite extreme, "[Haskell-beginners]," in line with the full naming of "[Haskell-cafe]." If any of you share either of these preferences, please voice your opinion on this forum, so that I can change the prefix.

As an argument in favor changing the prefix to a null string, if you filter for "beginners@haskell.org" on the To/CC header, you can filter out all the messages for this mailing list without a prefix for the subject line of list postings.

I.e., e.g., in Yahoo! Mail, first create a mail folder called "Haskell-Beginner Mailing List." Then, go to "Options" -> "Mail Options" -> "Filters," and add the following filter:

Haskell-Beginners Mailing List

If...

To/CC contains "haskell-beginners@haskell.org"

Then...

Move message to Haskell-Beginners Mailing List folder

This is how I filter out all my Haskell and Haskell-Cafe mailing list messages.

This allows all applicable messages to be filtered without the need for a prefix for the subject line of list postings.

Please post your opinion on this forum as to whether creating this kind of mail filter would be acceptable. If most people agree to this proposal, I will change the prefix back to a null string. Alternatively, if you feel that "[Haskell-beginners]," in line with "[Haskell-cafe]," is not too long, I can change it to that prefix.

Just for reference, I did a search on mailing lists, and discovered that the "plt-announce" mailing list has a prefix of "[PLT announcement]," which is 16 characters long, only one character shorter than "[Haskell-beginners]."

-- Benjamin L. Russell

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:51:05 +0100, Allan wrote:

...

I quite like that too, though I must admit I just filter on the 'sender' header.

regards allan

Chad Wilson wrote:

...

Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to help identify it more easily?

-w

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

2008/7/18 Felipe Lessa :

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:24 AM, John Melesky wrote:

...

My personal preference is the "no prefix" option.

I prefer without prefix, too.

Me too. I filter on the list header. But I'm fine with any prefix (though [Haskell-Beginner] seems a bit long, [Hs-Begin] would be fine). -- Jedaï

This allows all applicable messages to be filtered without the need for a prefix for the subject line of list postings.

Please post your opinion on this forum as to whether creating this kind of mail filter would be acceptable. If most people agree to this proposal, I will change the prefix back to a null string.

I prefer a null string - if filtering can be easily accomplished with the sender field, then extra stuff in the subject just makes it harder to read. Ben B.

...

This allows all applicable messages to be filtered without the need for a prefix for the subject line of list postings.

Please post your opinion on this forum as to whether creating this kind of mail filter would be acceptable. If most people agree to this proposal, I will change the prefix back to a null string.

I already filter on something else. I proposed adding the prefix for two reasons: (1) I file all my haskell-related lists into the same box, and the prefix is handy for quickly telling which one I'm reading. This can make the difference between, say, suggesting unsafePerformIO (in the cafe) or a brief explanation of IO (on this list). And (2) for conistency with [Haskell] and [Haskell-cafe]. It's not important to me. Sounds like the majority are for no prefix. John

I believe that using beginners@haskell.org and [Haskell-begin] in the subject line may confuse people. So, I would opt for [Haskell-beginners]. Angelos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin L.Russell" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:30 AM Subject: Re: [Haskell-begin] Re: New List

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:56:59 -0400, John Dorsey wrote:

...

I already filter on something else. I proposed adding the prefix for two reasons: (1) I file all my haskell-related lists into the same box, and the prefix is handy for quickly telling which one I'm reading. This can make the difference between, say, suggesting unsafePerformIO (in the cafe) or a brief explanation of IO (on this list). And (2) for conistency with [Haskell] and [Haskell-cafe].

I see your point: You would appreciate being able to use "[Haskell-begin] unsafePerformIO" vs. "[Haskell-cafe] unsafePerformIO" to differentiate between a brief explanation of IO on Haskell-Beginners vs. suggesting unsafePerformIO on Haskell-Cafe.

That actually is a valid point, and could prove useful at times.

Apart from just consistency with "[Haskell]" and "[Haskell-cafe]" in the prefix for the subject lines of Haskell and Haskell-Cafe, it seems that a prefix would be useful in ensuring consistency in having this mailing list referred to as "Haskell-Beginners," and not just "Beginners," by new members. Otherwise, the fact that the e-mail address is beginners@haskell.org, and not haskell-beginners@haskell.org, could create confusion. New members would probably start saying "Haskell" vs. "Haskell-Cafe" vs. "Beginners," leading to further inconsistencies in the proper names. Eventually, most people would just start calling this list "Beginners" because the name is shorter, and the name "Haskell-Beginners" would become mostly forgotten. However, if the prefix referred to the proper name of the list in every message, this confusion could be minimized.

...

It's not important to me. Sounds like the majority are for no prefix.

Nonetheless, you had a valid point, and many users had stated that as long as the prefix was short, the presence or absence of the prefix did not really matter to them. Ideally, my personal preference would be to be completely consistent with [Haskell] and [Haskell-cafe], and change the prefix to [Haskell-beginners], but it seems that then many readers would believe this prefix to be too long and make the subject line hard to read.

For the sake of argument, let's experiment:

[Haskell-begin] unsafePerformIO [Haskell-beginners] unsafePerformIO

Now, let's try a longer example:

[Haskell-begin] beginners mailing list should be beginner's choice [Haskell-beginners] beginners mailing list should be beginner's choice

Right now, in my Yahoo! Mail Haskell-Cafe folder, a typical truncated long subject-line message reads as follows:

[Haskell-cafe] ghc 6.8.3 build error with __DISCARD__ linking problem, please hel

That's 81 characters.

Right now, the longest example that I can find of a subject line in Haskell-Beginners is the following:

[Haskell-begin] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive patterns

That's 71 characters, using "[Haskell-begin]." If we changed "[Haskell-begin]" to "[Haskell-beginners]," that would add 4 characters, increasing the length to 75. That's still below 81. Here's a comparison:

[Haskell-begin] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive patterns [Haskell-beginners] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive patterns

Given that some mailing lists, such as plt-announce, already get by using prefixes of similar length (in their case, "[PLT announcement]," I think that in practice, after a few weeks, most readers would probably unconsciously just ignore the prefix and read the rest, and new readers would be able to read "[Haskell]" vs. "[Haskell-cafe]" vs. "[Haskell-beginners]" for consistency (although some users would probably complain at first).

Just for comparison, here are some examples of what is happening with the subject lines in plt-announce:

[PLT announcement] PLT Scheme v4.0 [PLT announcement] PLT Scheme v4.0.2

Let's compare what would happen with similar typical subject lines with "[Haskell-begin]" vs. "[Haskell-beginners]":

[Haskell-begin] Exercises for beginners and Natural Tansformations [Haskell-beginners] Exercises for beginners and Natural Tansformations

What do you think? Opinions, comment? You decide.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

I'm all for at least trying out [Haskell-beginners]. I believe it's easier to understand on first look, even for non native English speakers. Let's give it a shot! On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 6:49 AM, Benjamin L. Russell wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:49:19 +0300, "Angelos Sphyris" wrote:

...

I believe that using beginners@haskell.org and [Haskell-begin] in the subject line may confuse people. So, I would opt for [Haskell-beginners].

Thank you for your response.

While I agree for this exact reason, since some users had voiced the view that "[Haskell-beginners]" seemed too long, I would rather wait for a few days to see the overall response to the argument (it is possible that some readers may have been too busy to check this thread lately).

If "[Haskell-beginners]" seems acceptable as a prefix for the subject line to readers of this mailing list, let's try it out to see if it works (we can always change it back). Otherwise, we'll just continue using "[Haskell-begin]."

I would suggest at least trying out "[Haskell-beginners]" on a few threads for a few days to see if it can work. Otherwise, we will never know. If readers then start complaining "I can't stand the new prefix, because now I can't read the subject line well in my narrow mail tool/newsreader window," then I'll change it back right away. Then we'll know for sure. Some users may actually prefer the new prefix.

I'll wait for about three days to see the response to this argument on this thread before actually changing anything, unless readers say that trying out the new prefix is not acceptable.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list Beginners@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

-- Vitor J. Cortines

在 2008-7-28，上午10:40， Benjamin L.Russell 写道：

Since nobody has voiced any opposition to this proposal so far, I have just switched the prefix for the subject line from "[Haskell-begin]" to "[Haskell-beginners]." Let's give this new prefix a trial period of at least a few days if possible to see if it works....

Please let me know if you experience any problems with the new prefix. If it turns out that readers of this mailing list/newsgroup don't like it, I'll just switch it back.

This one is good, I like it :-) lee