On 1/28/08, Jeremy Apthorp wrote:

On 29/01/2008, Tim Chevalier wrote:

...

"Haskell", stress on the first syllable; the first syllable is like the word "has" and the second syllable is pronounced with a schwa where the "e" is written.

Sometimes you will hear people stress the second syllable, but that is not Preferred.

"Hass" (like in "hassle") "kell" (to rhyme with "fell")

That is not correct. The second syllable does not rhyme with "fell". In fact, the correct pronunciation sounds like "hassle" with a 'k' inserted between the two syllables of that word. (And when I say it's not correct, I'm comparing to the speech of a few People Who Should Know.) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "pointing out ridiculous attitudes about every actual thing in the world ever is not a crime" -- Tony Gies

James Russell wrote:

Tim Chevalier writes:

...

That is not correct. The second syllable does not rhyme with "fell". In fact, the correct pronunciation sounds like "hassle" with a 'k' inserted between the two syllables of that word.

Exactly. But am I the only person who has ever seen "Leave It To Beaver"? Remember Wally's slightly shady friend Eddie Haskell, who was always getting Wally into trouble?

It's pronounced exactly like his name.

This dialog is channeling the writers of the film "Young Frankenstein": Igor: Dr. Frankenstein... Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: "Fronkensteen." Igor: You're putting me on. Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No, it's pronounced "Fronkensteen." Igor: Do you also say "Froaderick"? Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No...”Frederick." Igor: Well, why isn't it "Froaderick Fronkensteen"? Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: It isn't; it's "Frederick Fronkensteen." Igor: I see. Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: You must be Igor. [He pronounces it ee-gor] Igor: No, it's pronounced "eye-gor." Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: But they told me it was "ee-gor." Igor: Well, they were wrong then, weren't they? [Transcript care of http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072431/quotes]

On 1/28/08, jerzy.karczmarczuk@info.unicaen.fr wrote:

Well, unless you are French. Then you don't pronounce "H". The remaining letters are pronounced according to the Règlements de l'Académie.

Fair enough. I wouldn't want to be culturally insensitive, and should have said that my statement was only directed at people who were speaking some dialect of English.

On the other hand, the name "Chevalier" is pronounced as it should be.

I can pronounce my own name better than more or less any other American, but -- sadly -- quite a bit worse than anyone who actually grew up speaking French. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "Now I'm trying to get back to what I know that I should be / hoping to God that I was just a temporary absentee" -- Gerard McHugh

At 16:16 29/01/2008, you wrote:

Am Dienstag, 29. Januar 2008 02:25 schrieb Tim Chevalier:

...

On 1/28/08, jerzy.karczmarczuk@info.unicaen.fr

wrote:

...

Well, unless you are French. Then you don't pronounce "H". The remaining letters are pronounced according to the Règlements de l'Académie.

Fair enough. I wouldn't want to be culturally insensitive, and should have said that my statement was only directed at people who were speaking some dialect of English.

Hmm, since Haskell is an English word, it should be pronounced the English way. At least, I try to not pronounce it like a German word…

...

[…] I didn't know Haskell was an English name.

Tim Chevalier writes:

... I think the usual convention is to pronounce names in the manner of the language that the person who has the name speaks. (Preferably just to pronounce people's names the way they say them.)

(The first convention doesn't work with my last name, though the second one does.)

Oh, people! I try hard to degenerate this discussion into a pure delirium traemens, and you still keep its serious intellectual contents intact! I bet that you don't even smile, writing your terrible off-topic postings! If you wish so... Tim, there cannot be any USUAL CONVENTION, unless you are conditioned by your anglo-saxon keyboard. There is no truly established way to translate non-standard diacritics. Even without, there are pronunciation variants, look how many versions of "Mustapha" names there are in the world. Try to transmit my family name to a Japanese, using Katakana (which, being syllabic, gives you many choices...) The information world today is far from a purely oral tradition. I think that the only sane attitude is just let people distort everything as they wish, and don't get nervous. Those distortions are unavoidable, languages are evolving creatures. ... And a good part of English has been established by those Francophone Vikings who won the battle of Hastings in 1066, beginning their campaign from where I usually live and work. ... Not forgetting that before them there were Danish Vikings, coming from the place where I sit now... Arigato gozaimasu. Jerzy Karczmarczuk. PS. If you think that "arigato" is a genuine Japanese word, well, check how the appropriately translated word is spelled in Portuguese...

On 29 Jan 2008, at 20:21, Anton van Straaten wrote:

Froprakxculmizum troodulifnax!

Bless you!

On 1/29/08, jerzy.karczmarczuk@info.unicaen.fr wrote:

Oh, people! I try hard to degenerate this discussion into a pure delirium traemens, and you still keep its serious intellectual contents intact! I bet that you don't even smile, writing your terrible off-topic postings!

Damn, I was trying to be wacky and off-topic too. I guess I must have failed at that goal. Time to start talking about applicative functors as used to explain how to use monad comprehensions to compile Perl into Unlambda, I guess.

If you wish so... Tim, there cannot be any USUAL CONVENTION, unless you are conditioned by your anglo-saxon keyboard.

I don't know what you mean by this exactly. I assume that your first name is not meant to be pronounced like the name of the isle of Jersey, even though that's what it looks like to me (an ignorant American). So if we met, I would try to pronounce it the way you said it. That's the "convention" that I see as applying.

There is no truly established way to translate non-standard diacritics. Even without, there are pronunciation variants, look how many versions of "Mustapha" names there are in the world. Try to transmit my family name to a Japanese, using Katakana (which, being syllabic, gives you many choices...) The information world today is far from a purely oral tradition. I think that the only sane attitude is just let people distort everything as they wish, and don't get nervous. Those distortions are unavoidable, languages are evolving creatures.

True, but this is more to do with text rather than speech.

... And a good part of English has been established by those Francophone Vikings who won the battle of Hastings in 1066, beginning their campaign from where I usually live and work. ... Not forgetting that before them there were Danish Vikings, coming from the place where I sit now...

Indo-European turtles all the way down. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "The geeks shall inherit the earth." -- Karl Lehenbauer

On Jan 29, 2008 11:19 AM, Jeremy Apthorp wrote:

Another Japanese word adopted from Portuguese is their word for "bread": "pan".

"tabako" too, I believe (it's not even written in katakana). Now, how do the Japanese pronounce Haskell, I'd like to know. Paulo

jerzy.karczmarczuk@info.unicaen.fr wrote in article in gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe:

Arigato gozaimasu.

Jerzy Karczmarczuk.

PS. If you think that "arigato" is a genuine Japanese word, well, check how the appropriately translated word is spelled in Portuguese...

I'm not sure what you mean by "genuine", but I suspect that whether "arigato" is genuine does not depend on Portuguese. http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1871.html http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1906.html -- Edit this signature at http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/ken/sig It is intensely annoying to an old Lisp hacker to see Java succeeding despite being worse at just about everything Lisp was ever criticised for. Richard A. O'Keefe.

According to the "Gogen Yurai Jiten" (Etymology Derivation Dictionary") (http://gogen-allguide.com/a/arigatou.html), the etymology of "arigato" ("arigatou" when entered into a Japanese input method editor, such as Kotoeri) is as follows (at the risk of moji-bake (garbled text), I have included the Japanese text in Japanese characters before each translated portion): - translated text follows immediately after this line - ‚ ‚肪‚Æ‚¤‚̌ꌹ‚́AŒ`—eŽŒu—L‚è“i‚ ‚肪‚½‚µjv‚̘A—pŒ`u—L‚è“ï‚­i‚ ‚肪‚½‚­jv‚ªƒE‰¹•Ö‰»‚µA‚ ‚肪‚Æ‚¤‚Æ‚È‚Á‚½B The etymology of "arigatou" is that the te-form [loosely translated as "conjunctive form"] "arigataku" of the adjective "arigatashi" changed in form to end in the "u" sound, and became "arigatou." u—L‚è“i‚ ‚肪‚½‚µjv‚́Au—L‚éi‚ ‚éj‚±‚Ɓv‚ªu“ï‚¢i‚©‚½‚¢jv‚Æ‚¢‚¤ˆÓ–¡‚ŁA–{—ˆ‚́u–Å‘½‚É‚È‚¢v‚âu’¿‚µ‚­‚Ä‹Md‚¾v‚Æ‚¢‚¤ˆÓ–¡‚ð•\‚µ‚½B "Arigatashi" has the meaning of "being" being "rare"/"difficult," and originally expressed the meaning of "rare" or "uncommon and precious." w–‘Žqx‚́u‚ ‚肪‚½‚«‚à‚́v‚ł́Au‚±‚̐¢‚É‚ ‚é‚Ì‚ª“‚¢v‚Æ‚¢‚¤ˆÓ–¡A‚‚܂èAu‰ß‚²‚µ‚É‚­‚¢v‚Æ‚¢‚Á‚½ˆÓ–¡‚Å‚à—p‚¢‚ç‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚éB In [the scene] "Arigataki Mono" ["That Which is Uncommon/Precious] ] of "Makura no Soushi" [The Pillow Book] [see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillow_Book], it is also used to mean "it is difficult to be in this world"; i.e., "difficult to spend [time in]." ’†¢‚É‚È‚èA•§‚ÌŽœ”ß‚È‚Ç‹Md‚Å“¾“ï‚¢‚à‚Ì‚ðŽ©•ª‚Í“¾‚Ä‚¢‚é‚Æ‚¢‚¤‚Æ‚±‚ë‚©‚çA@‹³“I‚ÈŠ´ŽÓ‚Ì‹CŽ‚¿‚ð‚¢‚¤‚悤‚É‚È‚èA‹ß¢ˆÈ~AŠ´ŽÓ‚̈Ӗ¡‚Æ‚µ‚Ĉê”Ê‚É‚àL‚ª‚Á‚½B When medieval times arrived, from [the idea of] charity of the Buddha, etc., in obtaining that which is precious and difficult to obtain, it came to express a feeling of gratitude, and in recent times and later, it spread to general use as the meaning of gratitude. ƒ|ƒ‹ƒgƒKƒ‹Œê‚́uƒIƒuƒŠƒK[ƒhiobrigadojv‚©‚çAu‚ ‚肪‚Æ‚¤v‚ÆŒ¾‚¤‚悤‚É‚È‚Á‚½‚Æ‚¢‚¤‘­à‚ª‚ ‚邪Aƒ|ƒ‹ƒgƒKƒ‹l‚ª–K‚ê‚éˆÈ‘O‚©‚çŽg‚í‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚½Œ¾—t‚ªƒ|ƒ‹ƒgƒKƒ‹Œê‚É—R—ˆ‚·‚é‚Í‚¸‚Í‚È‚­AuƒIƒuƒŠƒK[ƒhv‚Ɓu‚ ‚肪‚Æ‚¤v‚̉¹‚ª‹ß‚¢‚Æ‚¢‚¤‚¾‚¯‚̘b‚ŁA’ö“x‚Ì’á‚¢‘­à‚Å‚ ‚éB There is a myth that from "obrigado" of Portuguese, people came to say "arigatou," but it cannot be the case that a word used before Portuguese people [first] visited Japan was derived from the Portuguese language; it just so happens to be the case that the sounds of "obrigado" and "arigatou" are similar, and this is a vulgar myth. - translated text ends immediately before this line - Yoroshiku onegai itashimasu. Arigatou gozaimasu. Benjamin L. Russell --- jerzy.karczmarczuk@info.unicaen.fr wrote:

Chung-chieh Shan corrects me:

...

...

PS. If you think that "arigato" is a genuine Japanese word, well, check how the appropriately translated word is spelled in Portuguese...

I'm not sure what you mean by "genuine", but I suspect that whether "arigato" is genuine does not depend on Portuguese. http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1871.html http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-1906.html

Yes, it seems that I have been one more victim of this red herring. In the cited issues of the linguistlist there is a nice discussion of that topic. It should be more widely known entre a gente falando portugues. Vou calar a boca...

Gomen nasai.

Jerzy Karczmarczuk

_______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

I didn't know Haskell was an English name.

There's a Haskell playing for England at Twickenham on Saturday.

On 1/28/08, Tim Chevalier wrote:

On 1/28/08, Jeremy Shaw wrote:

...

Hello,

If my sources are to be believed, the following clip contains Simon Peyton Jones saying 'Haskell' several times.

http://www.n-heptane.com/nhlab/spj-haskell.wav

I have listened to Simon (and other equally sage folks) say "Haskell" on a few occasions and I believe that it's more like what I tried to render in text. Perhaps you've listened equally carefully but disagree; perhaps neither of us is wrong. the English language is weird that way.

I suppose you would really want to ask Haskell Curry how *he* pronounced his name, but it's a bit late for that.

I should really read more carefully -- I see now that you weren't trying to disagree with me by posting that clip, but the person who *did* disagree with me was also named "Jeremy". How confusing. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Chevalier * http://cs.pdx.edu/~tjc * Often in error, never in doubt "People. Can't live with 'em, can't legally set fire to 'em." -- Sheree Schrager

Jeremy Shaw wrote:

I would say the best description of how I pronounce it (which may or may not be right): is like 'rascal' but with an h. Though, perhaps different people pronounce rascal differently than I do.

I think to ease the acceptance of Haskell in the broader world we should spell it "Hascal" and stress the second syllable. :) Dan

Tim Chevalier(*) writes:

I think to ease the acceptance of Haskell in the broader world, we should just change the name to Schönfinkel.

On the other hand, is better not to try Curry, since the French pronounce it: Queue-rhrhrheeee. This is for me absolutely inacceptable and scandalous, since thus, they confuse him with Madame Curie, who was Polish, and I am a patriot. And after a few years, people from some Other Respectable Cultures will think that Haskell discovered Radium (for French: Hhhhudiomm). Thank you for this inspiring and awfully useful discussion. Jerzy K. (K is pronounced as K, the name of some heroes of Kafka, who was a Germanophone Czech Jew. Do not confuse his K with another K, by Dino Buzzati, who was Italian). === (*) Pronounced //possibly// as Che Guevara, with Guevara replaced by Valier. Now, Valier is a mountain in Les Pyrenées, (http://www.pyrenees-team.com/pteam/photos/valier/valierg/18) and the first person who climbed it was a bishop. The second one was also a bishop, so perhaps Tim should be careful. Some more messages on this subject, and I will have really to call an ambulance so they can take me away, far from Internet...

On Jan 29, 2008 1:45 PM, Yitzchak Gale wrote:

Paul Hudak wrote:

...

Well, Haskell was Curry's first name, so perhaps we should use "Moses", which was Schönfinkel's first name, and has some nice biblical metaphors :-)

"Haskell" is fine for that. In Biblical Hebrew, it means "enlightenment" or "insight".

With slightly less dignity, "Haskell" in Icelandic sounds close to "rasskell" - which in turn means "a spanking". :) cheers, Arnar

Tim Chevalier wrote:

I suppose you would really want to ask Haskell Curry how *he* pronounced his name, but it's a bit late for that.

Someone could ask Alonzo Church, Jr. how his one-time date pronounced her father's name: http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/haskell-curry-yes-i-dated-his...

Tim Chevalier wrote:

On 1/28/08, Anton van Straaten wrote:

...

Tim Chevalier wrote:

...

I suppose you would really want to ask Haskell Curry how *he* pronounced his name, but it's a bit late for that. Someone could ask Alonzo Church, Jr. how his one-time date pronounced her father's name:

http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/haskell-curry-yes-i-dated-his...

That is an excellent blog post, but according to one of the comments, Alonzo Church, Jr. is also no longer with us.

Oops. It seems that happened quite recently, on Jan 6th. (http://www.hudsonhubtimes.com/news/article/3107471)