On 7 November 2012 15:12, Carsten Mattner wrote:

...

Hi guys,

after a conversation with the current maintainer (Adam) and some guys at

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote: the

...

Copenhagen Uni I'm trying to convey XMonad efforts in a single point. Therefore, I've created this organization on Github:

https://github.com/XMonad

Is this official?

What do you mean by official? It's an effort to be as official as possible. That means involving the whole xmonad community, the more the merrier. I've started it just because I wanted to go for a "kickstart" to accelerate the process. Whoever wants can partecipate. I hope this to be the official xmonad organization :)

...

Please share your thoughts in the README repo, fire an issue maybe. The plan is to integrate XMonad with the latest patches, together with other related product like osxmonad.

Would you mind making the github org's name all lowercase? It accepts all variations of 'xmonad' but I believe it will be cleaner to have it all lowercase.

Done :)

If you have a github account and want to get involved, please let me know and I'll make you owner :) On 7 November 2012 15:18, Carsten Mattner wrote:

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

...

On 7 November 2012 15:12, Carsten Mattner

...

...

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

...

Hi guys,

after a conversation with the current maintainer (Adam) and some guys

at

...

...

the Copenhagen Uni I'm trying to convey XMonad efforts in a single point. Therefore, I've created this organization on Github:

https://github.com/XMonad

Is this official?

What do you mean by official? It's an effort to be as official as

wrote: possible.

...

That means involving the whole xmonad community, the more the merrier. I've started it just because I wanted to go for a "kickstart" to accelerate the process. Whoever wants can partecipate. I hope this to be the official xmonad organization :)

I understand :).

...

...

...

Please share your thoughts in the README repo, fire an issue maybe. The plan is to integrate XMonad with the latest patches, together with other related product like osxmonad.

Would you mind making the github org's name all lowercase? It accepts all variations of 'xmonad' but I believe it will be cleaner to have it all lowercase.

Done :)

Thanks.

Wow, good to see such answers, that means I've made a point :) Please note I've created the organization only this morning, so you are strongly encouraged to partecipate! As regards the "officiality" stuff, I've just started to work on a new website to include the old content, but in a more attractive way, no nothing that will disregard the original content. It would only be a Twitter Bootstrap website that WE hack on as soon as I do the first commit. It will be a Hakyll website, so we can still modularize the content and stick to the DRY principle. On 7 November 2012 15:29, Carsten Mattner wrote:

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

...

If you have a github account and want to get involved, please let me know and I'll make you owner :)

Are you sure you don't mean github organization team member?

When you become part of a Github organization, usually you do it as an Owner. You can create new repo, push and commit, etc :) Since is a community effort, I don't see a point in don't making anyone of you an owner :)

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Alfredo Di Napoli < alfredo.dinapoli@gmail.com> wrote:

In a nutshell, even before worrying about the old and the new, I'm focusing in proposing something better organized and a more pleasant website. Then we can propose and substitute the "old" stuff :)

So the github-is-the-only-way-OBEY crowd is now using "just force the issue" to steal control of projects to the One True System? -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allbery.b@gmail.com ballbery@sinenomine.net unix/linux, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure http://sinenomine.net

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Alfredo Di Napoli < alfredo.dinapoli@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry Brandon, I don't understand if is a praise or a rant :S

I'm not surprised a Holy Evangelist of the One True Church can't tell the difference. This is far form the first time I've seen some evangelist of the Only True Version Control try to browbeat, protection-racket, or JW some project into converting to the One True Church of Github. The Mormon take (hey, it's not on github, it's obviously unmaintained, leaderless, disorganized, and without any version control whatsoever; let's do a posthumous conversion, because if they'd only Known about The One True Church they obviously would have been part of the One True Church, right?) is a new one, but not surprising. Go preach somewhere else. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allbery.b@gmail.com ballbery@sinenomine.net unix/linux, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure http://sinenomine.net

Hey Timothy, don't worry, I don't even respond to meaningless criticism :) Have a nice day, all of you, and If you want to push and spread the initiative, feel free to :) Cheers, A. On 7 November 2012 18:01, wrote:

Alfredo,

Please don't be discouraged by this criticism.

Timothy

2012/11/7 Joachim Breitner :

Hi,

Am Mittwoch, den 07.11.2012, 18:01 +0100 schrieb timothyhobbs@seznam.cz:

...

Please don't be discouraged by this criticism.

yes, I agree, please do not.

But what I read out of Brandon’s mails is: It is not a different infrastructure that xmonad needs most, it is active and enduring maintenance and development. I’ve often seen people get excited about taking over a project, throw over a lot of existing infrastructure to set up what they want, and when the enthusiasm ebbs down, everything is as it is before.

What I would like to see is new people stepping up to maintain xmonad, but within the current infrastructure first. Go through the bugtracker, fix bugs (including the hard ones, e.g. focus issues with java and gtk3) put out a release of xmonad on hackage (remember, no special permissions needed for that!), make it compile with GHC 7.6. Do that for a while (say, two months or a little bit more). If you are still doing it by that time, you will have earned enough reputation within the xmonad community to be considered the “official” project lead and you will be most welcome to change the VCS, bugtracker and website to whatever you think suits the project more.

This also prevents the risk of alienating parts of the community by rushed changes and effectively creating a fork – one still dormant, but considered the real thing by many, and one developing away from it.

In any case, I wish you’ll succeed in reactivating the xmonad development.

I agree with Joachim. Just saying.

Greetings, Joachim (with his xmonad Debian package maintainer hat not on, but tucked under his arm)

-- Joachim "nomeata" Breitner mail@joachim-breitner.de | nomeata@debian.org | GPG: 0x4743206C xmpp: nomeata@joachim-breitner.de | http://www.joachim-breitner.de/

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Joachim Breitner wrote:

But what I read out of Brandon’s mails is: It is not a different infrastructure that xmonad needs most, it is active and enduring maintenance and development. I’ve often seen people get excited about

It's part that (and how much activity do you think a Haskell-based project gets? if I applied the Githubbers; Witnesses model to *that* I get a rewrite into PHP!) and part that I detest Github evangelists. It really is The One True Church behavior. We don't exist, have no organization, etc. because we had the presumption to not use The Holy Github? This is the message of Github evangelists, repeatedly, on multiple projects. NO. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allbery.b@gmail.com ballbery@sinenomine.net unix/linux, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure http://sinenomine.net

Thanks Tim for winding-back the whole thread history. I'm not a Github evangelist and I don't like the fold this thread is taking. I have not prejudices and I'm not get payed from Github for opening repos. I just thought if is during this time frame the most used social coding app to get things done, and considered that the existing fork of the Copenaghen guys, as well as osxmonad are STILL on Github, for me is the most reasonable choice. Stop! As regards the website writing thing, again, I don't want to pass the idea I'm the leader of something. I've just kickstarted the whole thing like a community thing! Please get involved! You don't like the idea of a new website? Fine! I'll stick with anything the community wants :) I just thought that if we have a new website we also have an alternative, as who knows we like the new website more the the old? :) To sum up, I think that Tim has exactly made my point, so the rest it's up to you. If you like the idea, please chime in. Otherwise maybe we'll continue with our "fork" to see where it brings us, and the xmonad official repo will continue to be in darcs, exactly as is it now. Have a nice day! A. On 7 November 2012 18:35, wrote:

Read back in this thread. There was no sugestion that someone doesn't exist. Alfredo asked if the project was maintained after discovering that there were not many recent commits to the darcs repo and patches for bugs which had yet to be merged. Another user chimed in that they too would like those patches merged into master and that the lack of a maintainer was what was holding things back. That second user said that they were maintaining their fixed repo on github. Alfredo kindly volunteered to maintain the project, and suggested bringing the project onto github. No assumption was ever made by anyone. Except perhaps Alfredo's assumption that the website needed a re-write as well :P

Tim

---------- Původní zpráva ---------- Od: Brandon Allbery Datum: 7. 11. 2012 Předmět: Re: [xmonad] A community-driven effort to make XMonad better and better

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Joachim Breitner < mail@joachim-breitner.de> wrote:

But what I read out of Brandon’s mails is: It is not a different infrastructure that xmonad needs most, it is active and enduring maintenance and development. I’ve often seen people get excited about

It's part that (and how much activity do you think a Haskell-based project gets? if I applied the Githubbers; Witnesses model to *that* I get a rewrite into PHP!) and part that I detest Github evangelists.

It really is The One True Church behavior. We don't exist, have no organization, etc. because we had the presumption to not use The Holy Github? This is the message of Github evangelists, repeatedly, on multiple projects.

NO.

-- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allbery.b@gmail.com ballbery@sinenomine.net unix/linux, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure http://sinenomine.net

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

As the author of osxmonad, I'm really happy with this initiative. I'm not so much of a GitHub person as a Bitbucket person but that's beside the point. A central place for all of XMonad, osxmonad, Contrib, extras and the website to live would be awesome. From what I can tell, GitHub is being used as a code hosting tool - not a brainwashing clinic. On 7 November 2012 10:52, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

Thanks Tim for winding-back the whole thread history. I'm not a Github evangelist and I don't like the fold this thread is taking. I have not prejudices and I'm not get payed from Github for opening repos. I just thought if is during this time frame the most used social coding app to get things done, and considered that the existing fork of the Copenaghen guys, as well as osxmonad are STILL on Github, for me is the most reasonable choice. Stop!

As regards the website writing thing, again, I don't want to pass the idea I'm the leader of something. I've just kickstarted the whole thing like a community thing! Please get involved! You don't like the idea of a new website? Fine! I'll stick with anything the community wants :) I just thought that if we have a new website we also have an alternative, as who knows we like the new website more the the old? :)

To sum up, I think that Tim has exactly made my point, so the rest it's up to you. If you like the idea, please chime in. Otherwise maybe we'll continue with our "fork" to see where it brings us, and the xmonad official repo will continue to be in darcs, exactly as is it now.

Have a nice day! A.

On 7 November 2012 18:35, wrote:

...

Read back in this thread. There was no sugestion that someone doesn't exist. Alfredo asked if the project was maintained after discovering that there were not many recent commits to the darcs repo and patches for bugs which had yet to be merged. Another user chimed in that they too would like those patches merged into master and that the lack of a maintainer was what was holding things back. That second user said that they were maintaining their fixed repo on github. Alfredo kindly volunteered to maintain the project, and suggested bringing the project onto github. No assumption was ever made by anyone. Except perhaps Alfredo's assumption that the website needed a re-write as well :P

Tim

---------- Původní zpráva ---------- Od: Brandon Allbery Datum: 7. 11. 2012 Předmět: Re: [xmonad] A community-driven effort to make XMonad better and better

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Joachim Breitner wrote:

But what I read out of Brandon’s mails is: It is not a different infrastructure that xmonad needs most, it is active and enduring maintenance and development. I’ve often seen people get excited about

It's part that (and how much activity do you think a Haskell-based project gets? if I applied the Githubbers; Witnesses model to *that* I get a rewrite into PHP!) and part that I detest Github evangelists.

It really is The One True Church behavior. We don't exist, have no organization, etc. because we had the presumption to not use The Holy Github? This is the message of Github evangelists, repeatedly, on multiple projects.

NO.

-- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allbery.b@gmail.com ballbery@sinenomine.net unix/linux, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure http://sinenomine.net

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Carsten Mattner wrote:

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Brian McKenna wrote:

...

As the author of osxmonad, I'm really happy with this initiative. I'm not so much of a GitHub person as a Bitbucket person but that's beside the point.

A central place for all of XMonad, osxmonad, Contrib, extras and the website to live would be awesome. From what I can tell, GitHub is being used as a code hosting tool - not a brainwashing clinic.

xmonad used darcs and therefore http://hub.darcs.net would

that should be "uses"

be a better fit. Joachim's patch tracker works and darcs works.

I think we only need more reviewers and contributors and a more active committer to the canonical darcs repository.

I don't mind and do use hg or git but let's not use the slow release problem as a reason to change the vcs system.

...

On 7 November 2012 10:52, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

...

Thanks Tim for winding-back the whole thread history. I'm not a Github evangelist and I don't like the fold this thread is taking. I have not prejudices and I'm not get payed from Github for opening repos. I just thought if is during this time frame the most used social coding app to get things done, and considered that the existing fork of the Copenaghen guys, as well as osxmonad are STILL on Github, for me is the most reasonable choice. Stop!

As regards the website writing thing, again, I don't want to pass the idea I'm the leader of something. I've just kickstarted the whole thing like a community thing! Please get involved! You don't like the idea of a new website? Fine! I'll stick with anything the community wants :) I just thought that if we have a new website we also have an alternative, as who knows we like the new website more the the old? :)

To sum up, I think that Tim has exactly made my point, so the rest it's up to you. If you like the idea, please chime in. Otherwise maybe we'll continue with our "fork" to see where it brings us, and the xmonad official repo will continue to be in darcs, exactly as is it now.

Have a nice day! A.

On 7 November 2012 18:35, wrote:

...

Read back in this thread. There was no sugestion that someone doesn't exist. Alfredo asked if the project was maintained after discovering that there were not many recent commits to the darcs repo and patches for bugs which had yet to be merged. Another user chimed in that they too would like those patches merged into master and that the lack of a maintainer was what was holding things back. That second user said that they were maintaining their fixed repo on github. Alfredo kindly volunteered to maintain the project, and suggested bringing the project onto github. No assumption was ever made by anyone. Except perhaps Alfredo's assumption that the website needed a re-write as well :P

Tim

---------- Původní zpráva ---------- Od: Brandon Allbery Datum: 7. 11. 2012 Předmět: Re: [xmonad] A community-driven effort to make XMonad better and better

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Joachim Breitner wrote:

But what I read out of Brandon’s mails is: It is not a different infrastructure that xmonad needs most, it is active and enduring maintenance and development. I’ve often seen people get excited about

It's part that (and how much activity do you think a Haskell-based project gets? if I applied the Githubbers; Witnesses model to *that* I get a rewrite into PHP!) and part that I detest Github evangelists.

It really is The One True Church behavior. We don't exist, have no organization, etc. because we had the presumption to not use The Holy Github? This is the message of Github evangelists, repeatedly, on multiple projects.

NO.

-- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allbery.b@gmail.com ballbery@sinenomine.net unix/linux, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure http://sinenomine.net

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Carlos López Camey wrote:

2012/11/7 Carsten Mattner :

...

xmonad used darcs and therefore http://hub.darcs.net would be a better fit. Joachim's patch tracker works and darcs works.

I think we only need more reviewers and contributors and a more active committer to the canonical darcs repository.

+1. In addition to it, a release plan would be just as appropriate.

+1 A related datapoint is that I've seen more than one project on github without a release plan and therefore github not automatically solving that problem. It's all about active contributors and maintainers if you ask me. I suppose what I'm saying is that xmonad has a maintainer and not a tooling issue.

It has been 1 year since the 0.10 release. If we are doing the 0.11 (or just peak at current progress) and want to summarize fixed bugs or features in a changelog, is the bug tracker's Advanced search [0] the tool to use?

[0] http://code.google.com/p/xmonad/issues/advsearch

BTW, is it only me or is google code's issue system better than github's?

Oh and another datapoint: Quite a few people have seen the GitHub page this morning and noticed my osxmonad project. This might be great for visibility. On 7 November 2012 10:52, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

Thanks Tim for winding-back the whole thread history. I'm not a Github evangelist and I don't like the fold this thread is taking. I have not prejudices and I'm not get payed from Github for opening repos. I just thought if is during this time frame the most used social coding app to get things done, and considered that the existing fork of the Copenaghen guys, as well as osxmonad are STILL on Github, for me is the most reasonable choice. Stop!

As regards the website writing thing, again, I don't want to pass the idea I'm the leader of something. I've just kickstarted the whole thing like a community thing! Please get involved! You don't like the idea of a new website? Fine! I'll stick with anything the community wants :) I just thought that if we have a new website we also have an alternative, as who knows we like the new website more the the old? :)

To sum up, I think that Tim has exactly made my point, so the rest it's up to you. If you like the idea, please chime in. Otherwise maybe we'll continue with our "fork" to see where it brings us, and the xmonad official repo will continue to be in darcs, exactly as is it now.

Have a nice day! A.

On 7 November 2012 18:35, wrote:

...

Read back in this thread. There was no sugestion that someone doesn't exist. Alfredo asked if the project was maintained after discovering that there were not many recent commits to the darcs repo and patches for bugs which had yet to be merged. Another user chimed in that they too would like those patches merged into master and that the lack of a maintainer was what was holding things back. That second user said that they were maintaining their fixed repo on github. Alfredo kindly volunteered to maintain the project, and suggested bringing the project onto github. No assumption was ever made by anyone. Except perhaps Alfredo's assumption that the website needed a re-write as well :P

Tim

---------- Původní zpráva ---------- Od: Brandon Allbery Datum: 7. 11. 2012 Předmět: Re: [xmonad] A community-driven effort to make XMonad better and better

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Joachim Breitner wrote:

But what I read out of Brandon's mails is: It is not a different infrastructure that xmonad needs most, it is active and enduring maintenance and development. I've often seen people get excited about

It's part that (and how much activity do you think a Haskell-based project gets? if I applied the Githubbers; Witnesses model to *that* I get a rewrite into PHP!) and part that I detest Github evangelists.

It really is The One True Church behavior. We don't exist, have no organization, etc. because we had the presumption to not use The Holy Github? This is the message of Github evangelists, repeatedly, on multiple projects.

NO.

-- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allbery.b@gmail.com ballbery@sinenomine.net unix/linux, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure http://sinenomine.net

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

Quoting Brian McKenna :

Oh and another datapoint:

Quite a few people have seen the GitHub page this morning and noticed my osxmonad project. This might be great for visibility.

Personally, I'd blame this on mentioning the project on the xmonad mailing list (and possibly whatever other mailing lists have been blindsided by this nonsense), not on the creation of an unnecessary github organization. ~d

On 11/07/2012 12:29 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote:

It really is The One True Church behavior. We don't exist, have no organization, etc. because we had the presumption to not use The Holy Github? This is the message of Github evangelists, repeatedly, on multiple projects.

From my perspective, it's the darcs camp that looks like a religious grouping, sticking with the philosophically pure structure while everyone else is getting work done on the other side of the wall. Heretofore, I shrugged, and thought "Not my project, they like the tools

I'm a Haskell outsider except for that which is necessary to run XMonad. It appears to me that there are many folks who are in a similar spot: XMonad appears to be one of the products in the Haskell space that attracts converts. So expect the XMonad population is relatively poorly initiated into the Functional School. they've got, more power to them." But since the topic is open... I'd find it easier to interact with the project if I only had to fight with the language, instead of fighting with the VC and the language both. I expect the other poorly-initiated folks have a similar perception: using The Philosophically Correct Haskell VC registers mostly as additional learning curve to participate. Take a look at the google trail of darcs vs. git; it peters out in 2010. I haven't done surveys, but I attribute this to GHC dropping darcs in favor of git. Here's what they had to say about it. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/DarcsEvaluation I'd recommend shifting to something that feels comfortable to the average young nerd who stumbles across XMonad on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_window_manager because that's who we want to take an interest and hack. - Allen S. Rout

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:25 AM, wrote:

I want it to be official. But it won't look officialish to the distro maintainers till http://xmonad.org/download.html links to it ;)

So who maintains that site?

I do. -David

Quoting timothyhobbs@seznam.cz:

The darcs repo linked to by the official web site is out of date and does not include widely known patches that fix significant bugs with java and focus.

As of 15 minutes ago or so, this is inaccurate. =) ~d

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:37 AM, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

There are 100 git repo for every Darcs repo.

Actually, I keep a comprehensive collection of Haskell repos locally for use as a corpus, including things like a complete copy of all Haskell* GitHub repos circa March 2011, and the Git repos number 4,679 and the Darcs repos number 984. 100:1 is quite an exaggeration of 5:1. * stuff detected as having Haskell, so it's overly broad and is an upper bound -- gwern http://www.gwern.net

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

While you are discussing this, people are asking for months the Java patch to be incorporated into the xmonad:

http://code.google.com/p/xmonad/issues/detail?id=177

Incidentally, I had to patch the code myself, despite my efforts to contact Adam to fix things. In your opinion, why this patch hasn't been incorporated yet? Mine is that is over complicated to do so, and a system LIKE Github (can be also Bitbucket or whatever) lowers the contribution bar at the point whoever can simply code, patch and pull-request.

I agree with this statement. It's important that it's easy to contribute to the project. The time it takes from a patch to be written, to it being reviewed and tested by others has to be short. Also, let's bring in some of the politeness from the Haskell-Cafe mailing list ;-) -- Johan Brinch

How about we stop the arguing and start writing code? I'm happy to help merge patches together. On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:37 AM, Alfredo Di Napoli < alfredo.dinapoli@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello guys,

let me respond with calm to any of you, and then I'm done, because I'm starting to get fed up in repeating always the same thing (which are contained in previous email). From the overall picture, I'm starting to see why xmonad is in the state it is, and why I've involuntary a nerve. Don't get me wrong guys, but you are navel-gazing.

The first thing is about Darcs, and I suspect is strongly related to the harsh Brandon's comment. In my opinion, you are acting NOT for the sake of xmonad and for the love of the WM, but in a name of a dogfooding attitude that I don't share. Even me would like to see Haskell rule the world, and use it for every possible task, but this is simply not possible in the nowadays panorama, full of heterogeneous technology. This means that, if for a particular task I consider git and github to be more effective instruments for the task at hand, I go for them without thinking twice. What I believe in is the code base, NOT the VCS. I haven't see a single comment worring about the code base or the fact people are complaining for the lack of patches. No. Most of you complained about Github evangelism or other nonsenses. Sorry If I told you so, but this is the kind of comments that put people off from the development of anything. But go with order.

Someone stated (sorry, I can't remember who) that we only need a more active maintainer and more contributors. Fine. But try to think why we are discussing all os this, it means that if you hadn't more contributor in the past, you are unlikely to have them in a near future. Why? Well, because if you don't change something, things will remain in the same stasis they used to me. From my humble point of you, this is related to two point: navel-gazing and doogfooding. Let's face it, and I say it like an Haskell lover and NOT as a Github evangelist (which I'm not): Darcs is not, and is not going to be the new de-facto VCS. Face it, but please don't hide behind that fact that some Haskell project are on Darcs. Haskell ecosystem is not the WHOLE software ecosystem. There are 100 git repo for every Darcs repo. Please don't get offended, it's just a matter-of-fact, and as computer guys now and often we should act with pragmatism. Darcs is a VERY good VCS, but it lacks infrastructures. Why people contribute on projects on Github or Bitbucket? For the same reason the iPhone is the most sold phone of the whole time (now someone will say I'm a Mac evangelist, despite the fact I'm running Linux while writing). They key here is SIMPLICITY. It I have to contribute to a project, with a VCS I don't know (and therefore I have to learn), where the code base isn't browsable online (just to get the gist), where the bug tracker is scattered and hosted on google project, why on earth should I contribute? In the name of the holy flame of Haskell? No, people don't think like this. They like to have the "pussy-features", like integrated wiki, bug tracker, online code browsing. They just clone a repo, hack on it, do a pull request and whoever has the admin rights can merge the patch. I repeat, whoever has the admin rights.

What I proposed with the Github organization was a means to decouple xmonad development with a single maintainer. In an organization, whoever is an owner can fix things, and this a great deal more handy to have a maintainer bottleneck. I've also followed all the due procedure, I've contacted Adam, I've contacted you first, I have invited all people I've talked to to join the organization, I've said 1000 times I'm NOT the leader of anything, but still Ivan comment's let intend that my initiative was perceived like a one-man evangelist that wants to bring everything under Github because is cool. Sorry, but that was not my intention, and some guys of the ML have understood this, thankfully.

Now the navel-gazing part. While you are discussing whether the google code advanced search is more sophisticated that Github one, or that the project should go on Darcs hubs (who cares if is used mainly for Haskell project, it requires you to register just to browse things, and in the main page I can't find a project search box to search for things. But hey, it's written in Haskell for Haskellers, so you should use it!). While you are discussing this, people are asking for months the Java patch to be incorporated into the xmonad:

http://code.google.com/p/xmonad/issues/detail?id=177

Incidentally, I had to patch the code myself, despite my efforts to contact Adam to fix things. In your opinion, why this patch hasn't been incorporated yet? Mine is that is over complicated to do so, and a system LIKE Github (can be also Bitbucket or whatever) lowers the contribution bar at the point whoever can simply code, patch and pull-request.

To conclude this poem, I think I've summarized my point of view. I don't want to create a fracture in the community, and as already stated in my prev email, I'm NOBODY: I have submitted ZERO patches to xmonad, so Gwern, I do believe in do-ocracy too, but I repeat, once again, I've also kickstarted the whole thing, I'm not the leader of anything. I just started from a consideration, followed by a proposed solution to fix things up, and I've seen some other people share my thoughts, and I can't ignore them.

So Ivan, I've not taken the crown off anyone's head, I'm only a Haskell and xmonad lover that wants to see his beloved WM maintained and patched. I'm beyond the VCS, because I care about THE CODE, sentiment I've struggle to find in some replies to my initiative.

It would have been awesome if the whole community agreed upon the initiative, and once again I encourage you to let me know if you want to be added to the Github organization. If the name bothers you, we can even change its names and start a new fork. It would be an awful thing, with so many effort thrown away, but if It will be the only viable solution, just as well. After all, open source code is - well - open source. The guys from Copenhagen are patching their own version of xmonad, so we could start from there. You even cared that their fork was actively maintained on Github, so why bother is we developed a different fork on our own?

I think of having expressed all my points. Sorry if the English wasn't perfect but as you may imply, I'm not a native English speaker. I don't think I will answer further to this thread, I said all I had to say.

If you want to support our new, unofficial initiative, feel free to. You know where to find us.

The Github sinners

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

Hi Erik! Don't worry, I was at work when I imported the repo. I usually work from home, where I have correct settings :) Looking forward to seeing your contributions, Alfredo Di Napoli On 13/nov/2012, at 02:52, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:

Alfredo Di Napoli wrote:

...

Hi guys,

after a conversation with the current maintainer (Adam) and some guys at the Copenhagen Uni I'm trying to convey XMonad efforts in a single point. Therefore, I've created this organization on Github:

https://github.com/XMonad

Please share your thoughts in the README repo, fire an issue maybe.

Alfredo,

You probably want to fix your git config so it know who you are. The top commit in the repo looks like this:

commit 0cb0c6e035e36cd95f9896279e3b082c143fd5d5 Author: Your Name Date: Fri Nov 9 15:43:44 2012 +0100

First commit after a clean import from Darcs

Erik -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Erik de Castro Lopo http://www.mega-nerd.com/

_______________________________________________ xmonad mailing list xmonad@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/xmonad

If I have to speak frankly, I got discouraged. Not in particular for the legit concerns of some "hardcore" users, but also because at the end of the day I was the only one trying to import the issues on the new tracker, the only one trying to plan something.. In a word, the only one, despite the fact mine was an effort to shake XMonad from its statis but I wanted a team project, not a lonely man project. I've tried to contact some people about some ideas I've got for XMonad (eg Wayland) but no response. Said that, and considering I'm again on Mac OS X in this slice of my life, I'm not motivated anymore. Who wants to join can poke me; the repos on github are public, so is the team. Happy life and holidays, Alfredo Di Napoli On 28/dic/2012, at 22:13, "Pablo Olmos de Aguilera C." wrote:

So, what's the state of this as the end of the year? I can't seem to find any discussion or progress (I don't mean there isn't, I just don't know where to look for it).

Regards and happy holidays :3 -- Pablo Olmos de Aguilera Corradini - @PaBLoX http://glatelier.org/ http://about.me/pablox/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/pablooda/ Linux User: #456971 - http://counter.li.org/

On 30 December 2012 14:46, Džen wrote:

hilarious.

Brandon was right from the beginning. Instead of crying around you should get some work done and submit patches as Joachim or Gwern pointed out. People can't be motivated by just not doing anything. Forking xmonad, re-doing an existing website which already looks fine and import issues to a new tracker although there already is an existing one won't change anything (what you actually wanted to change is xmonad itself, remember?). This also applies to github, just by using it you won't get more patches for xmonad out of nowhere. I myself haven't contributed anything either to xmonad yet, but in turn I don't expect anybody to fix issues I've found, nor to implement features I'd like to have in xmonad. But well, since you are "the only one", I might just be wrong.

But yeah, happy life to you too.

Well, there was no reason to be that harsh. Thanks Alfredo for your honest answer, I hope that you have learnt something in the process :) Regards, -- Pablo Olmos de Aguilera Corradini - @PaBLoX http://glatelier.org/ http://about.me/pablox/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/pablooda/ Linux User: #456971 - http://counter.li.org/